Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lady Atia]

Pre-patch on PTR doesn’t make sense as long as they’re still heavily tuning and changing talent trees in alpha / beta. Which is the case to this day. Add a completely missing spec and it should be obvious that PTR is several weeks away.

Tuning is actually easier if you can use the PTR to get more people to try out the new talents. There is a reason why the first week of a patch usually also has another wave of tuning / bug fixing, simply because of the huge difference of data between something like the alpha / ptr and the life server. So yeah, PTR together with beta would actually make sense.

I remember how much of a shitshow huge talent-tree changing pre-patches like cataclysm or MoP were .... trust me, they want as much data as possible prior to release.

[Nyel]

Bullshit, in SL we had PTR 2 months before pre-patch, when ton of thing weren't figured out either. PTR will be updated just like beta after any talent change. They probably want to finish last spec before starting PTR, but it could be any day.

Why are you always so rude? Totally unnecessary.

I remember the "any day" stuff for Dragonflight alpha were "any day" was almost three months. But yes, PTR could start today, right next to the new alpha build and beta. Why not?

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Tuning is actually easier if you can use the PTR to get more people to try out the new talents. There is a reason why the first week of a patch usually also has another wave of tuning / bug fixing, simply because of the huge difference of data between something like the alpha / ptr and the life server. So yeah, PTR together with beta would actually make sense.

I remember how much of a shitshow huge talent-tree changing pre-patches like cataclysm or MoP were .... trust me, they want as much data as possible prior to release.

If we go by that, they could have skipped alpha altogether for talent changes and directly went to beta or PTR... they need a basis they can iterate on. And that basis as of now hasn't been laid down yet. Druid hasn't had its dedicated bluepost yet. Vengeance completely missing. Sure, all of that can magically happen this week and PTR the next - but let's be realistic.

[Avikur]

I agree PTR helps with feedback on talents etc but it would be very unusual for it to go live before beta is out

[Valysar]

Maybe they want to do things differently this time. Talents are a BIG part of the gameplay, maybe they want everyone to test them on the PTR before.

[Arkura]

They can easily push builds out on ptr and beta realms at the same time and its what they usually do anyways when pre patch is on ptr. Balancing is an on going process thats never really "done". And right now I think they need all the feedback they can get their hands on.

[Lady Atia]

Why are you always so rude? Totally unnecessary.

I remember the "any day" stuff for Dragonflight alpha were "any day" was almost three months. But yes, PTR could start today, right next to the new alpha build and beta. Why not?

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If we go by that, they could have skipped alpha altogether for talent changes and directly went to beta or PTR... they need a basis they can iterate on. And that basis as of now hasn't been laid down yet. Druid hasn't had its dedicated bluepost yet. Vengeance completely missing. Sure, all of that can magically happen this week and PTR the next - but let's be realistic.

They can always test druids and vengeance later as there is literally no reason to test all 38 specs all at once, it's 2 month 'till pre-patch release so they should get the PTR up soon. Again, the reason why it makes sense to test the talents via PTR is to get more numbers in which is what you need for tuning. The basis for the other specs is there already and we know that atleast druids went into real life issues with their dev - doesn't mean all the other trees aren't ready for tuning already. And a simultanious release of beta for stress testing dragonflight stuff and PTR for initial level 60 talents tuning would be the best way to go if they want to finish everything 'till October 25th.

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Also, to quote our parrot:

"In something that wasn't on my bingo card for this month, PTR went down for maintenance and is being patched up to 10.0 (likely in a pre-patch state going off previous PTRs). "

Stop ignoring the evidence lol.

[loras]

Video idea

Would if i could, do feel free to "borrow" the idea and executr it though.

[Sondrelk]

I agree PTR helps with feedback on talents etc but it would be very unusual for it to go live before beta is out

It sounds off, but in practice its not all that different from how a PTR usually goes. The version we play on PTR is rarely if ever feature complete to begin with. And given the PTR would test the Pre-patch we wouldn't need more than that, or honestly even less given the primary reason to have s PTR is stress testing and tuning feedback.

[Dracullus]

I remember the "any day" stuff for Dragonflight alpha were "any day" was almost three months.

Yep, sometimes we have no idea about something and stuff may happen any day. I don't get whats so strange about it. But it doesn't mean that stuff must be far because made up reasons and correlations.

Not to mention that this testing is so different to Legion-SL period that we can throw away even more guesses. Who could predict game will be so advanced and people will test completed zones with endgame activities during Alpha?

[Nyel]

Stop ignoring the evidence lol.

I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm just trying to bring reason into the "beta this week" or "PTR soon" discussion. We all know it can't be too far off based on the leaked release date for Dragonflight, but that doesn't mean they're going to push an alpha build, release beta asap and then have PTR ready when WotLK Classic just launched it's pre-patch. Let things cooldown at least a little before you do all that stuff at once.

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Not to mention that this testing is so different to Legion-SL period that we can throw away even more guesses. Who could predict game will be so advanced and people will test completed zones with endgame activities during Alpha?

I mean it just shows how much useless manpower the always-failed borrowed power systems consumed, when Dragonflight, which adds none of this stuff, can get finished so quickly.

[Avikur]

It sounds off, but in practice its not all that different from how a PTR usually goes. The version we play on PTR is rarely if ever feature complete to begin with. And given the PTR would test the Pre-patch we wouldn't need more than that, or honestly even less given the primary reason to have s PTR is stress testing and tuning feedback.

That’s true, I just expected the beta out first to get more people invited and then do PTR so the people that haven’t been invited can test the new talents and class. Let’s be honest, if they do the PTR first it will be very busy on there with everyone wanting to have a look, if they do the beta first it’ll at least spread the load. Maybe they do want it busy to stress test it? If that’s the case though why not just make it an open beta?

It’d be nice for the PTR to go live so people that usually don’t get into beta (like me!) can test the talents and provide feedback and hopefully influence positive change

[Lady Atia]

I'm not ignoring evidence, I'm just trying to bring reason into the "beta this week" or "PTR soon" discussion. We all know it can't be too far off based on the leaked release date for Dragonflight, but that doesn't mean they're going to push an alpha build, release beta asap and then have PTR ready when WotLK Classic just launched it's pre-patch. Let things cooldown at least a little before you do all that stuff at once.

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I mean it just shows how much useless manpower the always-failed borrowed power systems consumed, when Dragonflight, which adds none of this stuff, can get finished so quickly.

There is no difference in pushing the last build of the alpha or the first build of the beta, the only thing is that beta is "features complete" and has far bigger invite waves. And the first PTR build doesn't need any pre-event stuff, it would prolly be for the talent trees only initially. Also different teams work on wotlk and dragonflight, there is zero reason why retail should be bogged down by the classic stuff tbh.

I don't say they will release everything at once today, just that we should get both beta and ptr soon(TM), and going of what Marla said it seems like the initial ptr is ready to go.

[Marlamin]

There is no difference in pushing the last build of the alpha or the first build of the beta, the only difference is that beta is "features complete" and has far bigger invite waves. And the first PTR build doesn't need any pre-event stuff, it would prolly be for the talent trees only initially. Also different teams work on wotlk and dragonflight, there is zero reason why retail should be bogged down by the classic stuff tbh.

I don't say they will release everything at once today, just that we should get both beta and ptr soon(TM), and going of what Marla said it seems like the initial ptr is ready to go.

I did specifically mention I don't know when the PTR is being released. While PTR and Alpha servers are on the same build (the one that'll hopefully release to Alpha realms today), it's very possible they'll keep PTR down and push out the client later.

For Classic PTR it took a week between being patched to 3.4.0 pre-patch and the client actually being pushed. Historically, Retail PTR hasn't taken that long between server maintenance/a build, but then again there historically hasn't been a pre-patch PTR this close to, and let alone during an ongoing Alpha either, so we're in somewhat new territory here. It's worth noting that 9.2.7 PTR forums are still available too.

[Shakzor]

It's possible Blizzard is just going to flat out not test bosses before releasing them. The final three bosses of Sepulcher was considered a smashing success by almost everyone, barring the high tuning. Given Blizzard agrees raids should be easier I think they might just err on the side of low tuning with mythic WF difficulty coming from the bosses being complete unknowns. This is especially relevant seeing as Mythic will likely release first week, meaning WF raids will see ALL the bosses for the first time, not just the final boss, and not just on that specific difficulty.

ngl, i'd love for a raid to just not be solved when it launches. In dungeons, everyone just goes in blind and figures out stuff on the go, but for raids, it's always "watch guides before we set foot at all"

[Makorus]

Are we really acting like Beta/Alpha labels mean anything to Blizzard?

There were times when it was called a beta and it would have been an Alpha by definition, and there were times when it was called an Alpha when it was a Beta by definition.

Even Blizzard uses the the two terms interchangably in interviews.

It "not even being Beta yet" means fuck all in relation to WoW.

inb4 someone quotes the actual definitions of Alpha/Beta to me.

[Sondrelk]

ngl, i'd love for a raid to just not be solved when it launches. In dungeons, everyone just goes in blind and figures out stuff on the go, but for raids, it's always "watch guides before we set foot at all"

Especially with lower difficulty overall. You can get the basic gist of the bosses from reading the dungeon journal but once you start clearing bosses it shouldn't feel like a chore to have to learn all the intricate details.

Or maybe I am just conflicted and want to have my cake and eat it as well. Wanting both to raid HV with my guild, and also for those raids to feel easy enough I can relax while doing them.

[Marlamin]

Are we really acting like Beta/Alpha labels mean anything to Blizzard?

There were times when it was called a beta and it would have been an Alpha by definition, and there were times when it was called an Alpha when it was a Beta by definition.

Even Blizzard uses the the two terms interchangably in interviews.

It "not even being Beta yet" means fuck all in relation to WoW.

inb4 someone quotes the actual definitions of Alpha/Beta to me.

Outside of it being somewhat of an indication as to whether or not most things are available for testing and the amount of people being allowed in to test, the terms are used very interchangably (and why Ion misspoke and said Beta during Max's interview too -- there is no difference between an Alpha/Beta client on their end).

[Makabreska]

ngl, i'd love for a raid to just not be solved when it launches. In dungeons, everyone just goes in blind and figures out stuff on the go, but for raids, it's always "watch guides before we set foot at all"

Well, dungeons bosses usually have simpler/less cluttered mechanics, and cost of wipe is smaller. Also, first difficulty encountered are normals during leveling, and many people simply destroy those in their previous expac Mythic gear.

[Gorsameth]

ngl, i'd love for a raid to just not be solved when it launches. In dungeons, everyone just goes in blind and figures out stuff on the go, but for raids, it's always "watch guides before we set foot at all"

Dungeons bosses are a lot less complex and its 5 people taking an hour instead of 30min.
With a raid your already dealing with people generally having limited ability to commit to a 3+ hours block during an evening and its 20 people that instead of killing a boss in an hour and a half take 3 hours to maybe get to phase 2 on the first boss.

Its a completely different scale of time investment and commitment.

[Shakzor]

Dungeons bosses are a lot less complex and its 5 people taking an hour instead of 30min.
With a raid your already dealing with people generally having limited ability to commit to a 3+ hours block during an evening and its 20 people that instead of killing a boss in an hour and a half take 3 hours to maybe get to phase 2 on the first boss.

Its a completely different scale of time investment and commitment.

The dungeon journal explains pretty much everything, except how big an AoE might be or where to position and these things can be figured out pretty quickly. You pretty much always figure out beforehand what you need to do in any fight, by just reading it a minute when reaching the boss (or someone goes on /follow and reads it for all, idk).
I'd definitely like atleast a mini raid where we have 1-3 bosses with no prior testing, so it becomes an actual learning thing on live, rather than "repeat what others have done for hours on PTR already"