Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[draugril]

I kinda agree though I suppose someone would make the argument this was always the case with tier-sets instead of borrowed power. Even though some of the systems have been fun, I do think the fact they have systems at all is an indication something more fundamental might be broken. Make the classes great and fun to play and you don't need systems!

Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

[Sondrelk]

Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

What isnt fun is feeling like some item slots will never be replaced except with a direct upgrade item.
This is especially noticeable after M+ gave an alternate gearing path for PvE with its own rewards. Assuming the return of Tier Sets works the same then counting the crafted legendary you will only have 10 available gear slots down from 15, counting trinket slots which are themselves usually quite difficult to replace.
The weekly vault is a massive upgrade on the old M+ chest, but even assuming hte full set of 9 options the odds that you will get nothing that can replace what you already have is massively worsened with the simple addition of 4 pieces that you are not going to be replacing until the next major patch.

[Ersula]

Covid. Lawsuits. AND laying off 800 employees in 2019.

2/3rds of Activision-Blizzard's problems are things they did to themselves.

I think 3 ten-boss raids is a healthy amount for an expansion (if not the bare minimum) but Shadowlands suffered more in the story & features department: Torghast is supposed to be the successor to both Warfronts AND Island expeditions? Do each wing twice & you would have seen everything possible to see in there. The next year of WoW will really have to impress people or else the companies lost a major asset.

- - - Updated - - -

Tier sets, as a system, existed for well over a decade. Items with bonuses are fun! You didn't need to relearn that some items had unique bonuses and set bonuses patch after patch. The structure was consistent. Now, they reinvent systems with the exact same purpose virtually every few months.

As I've heard it described, Ion's approach to innovation is to just scramble around stuff we liked in Legion but remake them worse.

[Makorus]

Covid. Lawsuits. AND laying off 800 employees in 2019.

2/3rds of Activision-Blizzard's problems are things they did to themselves.

I think 3 ten-boss raids is a healthy amount for an expansion (if not the bare minimum) but Shadowlands suffered more in the story & features department: Torghast is supposed to be the successor to both Warfronts AND Island expeditions? Do each wing twice & you would have seen everything possible to see in there. The next year of WoW will really have to impress people or else the companies lost a major asset.

- - - Updated - - -


As I've heard it described, Ion's approach to innovation is to just scramble around stuff we liked in Legion but remake them worse.

I mean, the staff they laid off had nothing to do with development, and they did in fact hire more actual developers in response to the layoffs.

While I think Torghast is amazing feature concept-wise, the fact that they put all their eggs into that basket was silly.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Obvious answer is that they were trying to make a variation of Tier Sets without so many inherent issues prevalent in the old raid tier set system.

Their intentions for once weren't bad I feel. Definitely the idea of "nobody rolls on these 5 slots unless it's tier" was a problem.

But their solution ended up just injecting more RNG into loot again. Maybe going forward the solution to how to capture the feel of "tier set bonuses" without the slot-lockout of tier set bonuses is to make a system that, wait for it, isn't tied to gear at all.

[Ersula]

I mean, the staff they laid off had nothing to do with development, and they did in fact hire more actual developers in response to the layoffs.

The people layed off were not developers, but most of them were QUALITY CONTROL; as in testing the actual game: Meaning they absolutely affected Shadowlands development. Not just bugs, but the feedback required to tell the developers "this is not fun". This is directly related to the documented drop in subscribers

[Sondrelk]

Their intentions for once weren't bad I feel. Definitely the idea of "nobody rolls on these 5 slots unless it's tier" was a problem.

But their solution ended up just injecting more RNG into loot again. Maybe going forward the solution to how to capture the feel of "tier set bonuses" without the slot-lockout of tier set bonuses is to make a system that, wait for it, isn't tied to gear at all.

The thing is that there are several aspects to Tier Sets that the system cannot really do without, and which is simultaneously the root of the problem. Powerful passive effects cannot be tuned around a single item if it is supposed to be for only a single tier, or for that matter be gathered over a longer time. They could probably remove the 2-set bonus and lower the 4-set to a 3-set, but that would still leave the biggest problem, that tier sets only really work if they are unquestionably the superior choice, and if they are that good then nothing will ever be able to compete.
Domination sockets tried to at least circumvent the idea that tier sets are top tier in all content however, so maybe future tier sets could similarly only work in raids and the overworld. However, with that you run into a separate issue with tier sets, that they are supposed to be intrinsically tied to the class, and if you are constantly switching what abilities can and cannot be used in content then you are severaly impeding the players ability to get truly comfortable with their rotation. PvP having extra abilities are bad enough in that regard, adding passive tier sets on top that will mesh with WPvP, but not instanced PvP, will undoubtedly cause some conflict with players that dislike the Esports centered mentality.

The thing is that tier sets are intrinsically problematic, and the developers will just have to decide whether to live with it or not. Because like all important gameplay choices its one between making something convenient, or making something deep. Tier sets will definitely make gearing in raids at least much deeper, but it will also make it highly inconvenient for many. It really is just a decision the developers will have to take a firm stance on.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

The thing is that there are several aspects to Tier Sets that the system cannot really do without, and which is simultaneously the root of the problem. Powerful passive effects cannot be tuned around a single item if it is supposed to be for only a single tier, or for that matter be gathered over a longer time. They could probably remove the 2-set bonus and lower the 4-set to a 3-set, but that would still leave the biggest problem, that tier sets only really work if they are unquestionably the superior choice, and if they are that good then nothing will ever be able to compete.
Domination sockets tried to at least circumvent the idea that tier sets are top tier in all content however, so maybe future tier sets could similarly only work in raids and the overworld. However, with that you run into a separate issue with tier sets, that they are supposed to be intrinsically tied to the class, and if you are constantly switching what abilities can and cannot be used in content then you are severaly impeding the players ability to get truly comfortable with their rotation. PvP having extra abilities are bad enough in that regard, adding passive tier sets on top that will mesh with WPvP, but not instanced PvP, will undoubtedly cause some conflict with players that dislike the Esports centered mentality.

The thing is that tier sets are intrinsically problematic, and the developers will just have to decide whether to live with it or not. Because like all important gameplay choices its one between making something convenient, or making something deep. Tier sets will definitely make gearing in raids at least much deeper, but it will also make it highly inconvenient for many. It really is just a decision the developers will have to take a firm stance on.

Ultimately I think the solution is gearing across the board needs a revamp, not just the addition/removal of tier sets. For the many sins of Azerite armor, I do think it had one good idea. That every piece of gear, no matter how trivial, can and probably should have some special quirk to it that might make a player want it over something that's just "better numbers."

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't mind tier sets and I'm ok with them. I just sympathize with the artists finding new ways to make gear look.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I wonder how many people actually care about tier sets for the set bonus component over the class-designed armor. I feel like if they just brought the armor back without the bonuses, there wouldn't be much fuss.

[TheFirstOnes]

@Nyel

Idk where you’re getting that the Northrend maps automatically mean endgame for 9.2. Could be part of the 9.2 story, sure, but nothing says the story “culminates” there.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The people layed off were not developers, but most of them were QUALITY CONTROL; as in testing the actual game: Meaning they absolutely affected Shadowlands development. Not just bugs, but the feedback required to tell the developers "this is not fun". This is directly related to the documented drop in subscribers

most of the loyoffs weren't quality control that's something a youtuber made up there were like 11 QA post laid off out of over 300.

[rrayy]

The people layed off were not developers, but most of them were QUALITY CONTROL; as in testing the actual game: Meaning they absolutely affected Shadowlands development. Not just bugs, but the feedback required to tell the developers "this is not fun". This is directly related to the documented drop in subscribers

That is wrong. WoW was not affected by the layoffs.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Thinking about the Jailer's plan, if it is to undo reality... he could still be successful even though we defeat him. This would give players the satisfaction of killing him and would allow Blizzard to get creative with this new reality. I'm biased as I am hoping for a full world revamp in different phases, but imagine coming back to Azeroth... and the world is completely different to what we knew. The Cataclysm never happened, all that jazz. It could make for an extremely interesting extension, and also would create a strong base for the future: storylines could allow us to come back to Azeroth more often.

[Orisai]

That is wrong. WoW was not affected by the layoffs.

True. They were mostly from the remake/remasters teams behind Warcraft III Reforged and Starcraft Remastered.

[huth]

The people layed off were not developers, but most of them were QUALITY CONTROL; as in testing the actual game: Meaning they absolutely affected Shadowlands development. Not just bugs, but the feedback required to tell the developers "this is not fun". This is directly related to the documented drop in subscribers

Customer Service is not Quality Assurance or Control. You're just making shit up there.

[Three Faced Goddess]

So... I know the general concensus is "OMG Halls of Reflection minimap update means we're going to Ulduar for 9.2" but what if it's something for 10.0?

I mean we may have excised the Old Gods but Azeroth is still kinda fucked what with that big sword and wound in it. If we're doubling back to that issue at some point it may require more Titan Facility visits.

Genuine question, but what does Halls of Reflection have to do with Titan facilities? It took place in ICC.

We were speculating for a very long time that this expansion culminates in Icecrown / on Azeroth, so it’s nice to see this.

It is nice to see that one of my speculations seem to be true. Now if only they reforge the Helm and crown a new Lich King thus ending the Scourge rampage. After BFA, neither the Horde or Alliance has the numbers to fight off the Scourge for very long. Anduin basically confirmed this when he lamented the fact that he had to conscript farmers. I believe it was also confirmed that the Horde has also depleted its forces.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Genuine question, but what does Halls of Reflection have to do with Titan facilities? It took place in ICC.

Nothing really, I haven't seen people start think Ulduar. Seems like someone is projecting(Not you).

[Three Faced Goddess]

Nothing really, I haven't seen people start think Ulduar. Seems like someone is projecting(Not you).

I didn't think so.

So... I know the general concensus is "OMG Halls of Reflection minimap update means we're going to Ulduar for 9.2" but what if it's something for 10.0?

I mean we may have excised the Old Gods but Azeroth is still kinda fucked what with that big sword and wound in it. If we're doubling back to that issue at some point it may require more Titan Facility visits.

Thinking about the Jailer's plan, if it is to undo reality... he could still be successful even though we defeat him. This would give players the satisfaction of killing him and would allow Blizzard to get creative with this new reality. I'm biased as I am hoping for a full world revamp in different phases, but imagine coming back to Azeroth... and the world is completely different to what we knew. The Cataclysm never happened, all that jazz. It could make for an extremely interesting extension, and also would create a strong base for the future: storylines could allow us to come back to Azeroth more often.

This. I'm so done with this continuity, it's been ruined for me (just my opinion.)

[Ersula]

That is wrong. WoW was not affected by the layoffs.

Looking at the state of the game, it clearly was.