Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

If people liked Shadowland's story, maybe.

But it's widely hated, so no doubt Blizz will brush the Jailer under the rug rather than putting him front and center for the next 10 years.

Well those people won't be very happy when they return to a clusterfuck Azeroth with narratives that most players don't even think about at this point.

Again, I genuinely believe that it would be a mistake to not go for the opportunity that they've presented themselves with here, especially since we were kinda forced here by Danuser. So if Danuser isn't going to do anything with this. He should get the axe at that point rather than letting him control another GoT style expansion that will go down in flames as he kills 3+ more expansion packs.

[draugril]

I don't think Zovaal is going to die seeing as the Primus seemed to hint that Zovaals "goal" was to subjugate everyone, which isnt exactly the kind of goal that can be accomplished when he isnt around.

Which made him somehow even less interesting than he was in the first place, which is quite a feat.

[Sondrelk]

Well those people won't be very happy when they return to a clusterfuck Azeroth with narratives that most players don't even think about at this point.

Those will at least probably have a 1 in 24 chance to be directly related to the race being played, higher if you don't count ARs and assume a narrative bias towards the most popular races like Nelf and Orcs.

Going back to Azeroth and dealing with local problems is also likely to trigger a burst of nostalgia for older players.

[Tyrien]

Guessing no PTR today if all the staff have walked out.

[Sondrelk]

Guessing no PTR today if all the staff have walked out.

Yeah, unless setting up the PTR is literally being done as we speak then the PTR will probably take at least another week, possibly even more depending on what is decided.

Though the strike could be a dud, that does sometimes happen.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Those will at least probably have a 1 in 24 chance to be directly related to the race being played, higher if you don't count ARs and assume a narrative bias towards the most popular races like Nelf and Orcs.

Going back to Azeroth and dealing with local problems is also likely to trigger a burst of nostalgia for older players.

Well, what happens when you instead of doing that and it goes into LOL TURALYON GOD EMPEROR HOLY WAR LOL SO FUN OMG I LOVE COSMIC STUFF ON AZEROTH SO FUN WOOOOOHOOO.

Believe me, going back to Current Azeroth is going to get this writing team writing Azeroth based expansions that everyone hates.

Under no circumstances will they be able to write an Azeroth expansion without some tomfoolery that makes it not about Azeroth and the stories on it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yeah, unless setting up the PTR is literally being done as we speak then the PTR will probably take at least another week, possibly even more depending on what is decided.

Though the strike could be a dud, that does sometimes happen.

I mean they're shutting down next week so it's not "one more week" it's this or two weeks.

[Valysar]

See you in 2 weeks then.

[Sondrelk]

Well, what happens when you instead of doing that and it goes into LOL TURALYON GOD EMPEROR HOLY WAR LOL SO FUN OMG I LOVE COSMIC STUFF ON AZEROTH SO FUN WOOOOOHOOO.

Believe me, going back to Current Azeroth is going to get this writing team writing Azeroth based expansions that everyone hates.

Under no circumstances will they be able to write an Azeroth expansion without some tomfoolery that makes it not about Azeroth and the stories on it.

I will take cosmic stuff on Azeroth over cosmic stuff in random cosmic realms, honestly.
If the choice is between a story I check out of set in a place I feel no reason to care about, and a choice where I check out, but set in an area I feel immersed in and care about then I will absolutely take the latter option.

Take a Light themed expansion for instance. While I care little for the plot on the base level, I would be much more excited for the possibility of a Siege of Stormwind raid where we have to stop Turalyon or something over a raid in Naarupolis, the capital of the Naaru that got mentioned offhandedly by a strange catgirl we happened to meet in the preceding patch.

[draugril]

I will take cosmic stuff on Azeroth over cosmic stuff in random cosmic realms, honestly.
If the choice is between a story I check out of set in a place I feel no reason to care about, and a choice where I check out, but set in an area I feel immersed in and care about then I will absolutely take the latter option.

Take a Light themed expansion for instance. While I care little for the plot on the base level, I would be much more excited for the possibility of a Siege of Stormwind raid where we have to stop Turalyon or something over a raid in Naarupolis, the capital of the Naaru that got mentioned offhandedly by a strange catgirl we happened to meet in the preceding patch.

I am 100% behind showing us existing zones in a new context. Let the world evolve in significant ways.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Well, what happens when you instead of doing that and it goes into LOL TURALYON GOD EMPEROR HOLY WAR LOL SO FUN OMG I LOVE COSMIC STUFF ON AZEROTH SO FUN WOOOOOHOOO.

Believe me, going back to Current Azeroth is going to get this writing team writing Azeroth based expansions that everyone hates.

Under no circumstances will they be able to write an Azeroth expansion without some tomfoolery that makes it not about Azeroth and the stories on it.

If it sucks, it sucks. And we all go give WoW a viking funeral and play something else.

It's why I've stopped worrying so much about "what if we're wrong and the next expansion sucks." I used to get a complete pit in my stomach when WoD was announced, or Legion was "just the Broken Isles." Now if it's Lifelands next I just shrug and play Endwalker, or Classic.

[Chickat]

Do you guys think two expansions back-to-back focused on each of Azeroth original continents could work?

Let me explain: the way I see it, we have three potential scenarios for a world revamp allowing for significant changes (which would still make Azeroth feel fresh and not just HD).

• Scenario 1: the Jailer hits the supposed reset button, or after he's defeated someone else hits it such as Tyrande or Sylvanas to unmake the past, or Magni to save Azeroth from dying: the whole Azeroth as we know it would change and we could end up with a very different timeline.
• Scenario 2: we defeat the Jailer and when we return to Azeroth we discover that years have passed since we were gone.
• Scenario 3: we defeat the Jailer, but in order to save Azeroth we have to partially reoriginate it, or do something that will alter the world as we know it.

Now, regardless of which of these scenarios might happen, revamping all the current zones in EK and Kalimdor would require a LOT of work, even though buildings and NPCs have been gradually updated, there are still loads of unique assets that would require a revamp, and entire environments to rebuild from scratch... which led me to think, what if they were not all available at launch?

What if the first expansion focuses on the Eastern Kingdoms, and the second one sees us rediscovering Kalimdor? Or what if we get only a few entirely revamped zones, but the zones that have not been revamped remain unaccessible at launch and are kept for future high-level/patch content?

The access to those zones would be completely blocked for lore reasons, until Blizzard finds a reason to revamp them. The old world as we knew it would be accessible through Chromie and the Caverns of Time, so this new revamped Azeroth I am talking about would be completely built from scratch, and it would serve as a solid base to the future of WoW, allowing for zones to be added through time, and to eventually balance things out between the grounded and the cosmic storylines as the developers were discussing.

Zones that could be kept for future patch content could include:

• Stranglethorn Valley. The zone would remain unaccessible at first because of the incredibly dense jungle, deadly troll attacks happening in the northern part of the jungle, and pirates controlling the seas around the area.
  
• Mount Hyjal. The zone would remain unaccessible at first as after losing Teldrassil, the Night Elves have become even more secluded, focusing on rebuilding their civilisation, forbidding the presence of other races in Hyjal, their new haven.
  
• Quel'Thalas. The zone would remain unaccessible at first as the Blood Elves have been struggling internally and politically, trying to bring the Elven people together (Sin'dorei, Quel'dorei and Ren'dorei), and rebuilding their city, preventing foreigners to access their kingdom. Access to the zone for adventurers would be justified after a dramatic event (such as the attempt to corrupt the sunwell) pushing the Blood Elves to ask for external help in order to save Quel'Thalas.
  
• Silithus. The zone would remain unaccessible at first as the Silithid have completely taken it over, turning it into one of the most unhospitable place in Azeroth, while actively trying to revive their old master.
  
• Uldum. The zone would remain unaccessible at first as the Tol'vir have once again closed its gates, to secure the secrets it holds and protect the Forge of Origin at all costs.
  
• Burning Steppes. The zone would remain unaccessible at first as the Ragnaros fanatics have taken complete control of the zones and blocked every tunnel leading to it. The increased activity of Mount Blackrock has rendered impossible flight anywhere near the zone, as the air is now packed with ashes.

The list can go on, you get the idea... This would allow for a progressive revamp while restoring some mystery to the old world of Azeroth. I remember wanting to know what was happening in Gilneas, Kul Tiras, Zul'Aman or Uldum for years until those zones were made available: this feeling of mystery was great and it made the world bigger. I think this would help as well, and would prevent a rushed revamp and allow Blizzard to unlock those new zones whenever they feel it would be relevant.

That would be cool. I would be fine with 3 or even 4 expansion set in azeroth with basic themes. I like grounded stuff more than cosmic anyways.

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There's 3 bosses for the unknown final wing of the raid. Who are the 2 bosses prior to the Jailor?

That's one of the key questions I'm curious about because there's a few puzzle pieces that need to fit nicely into the overall picture that still aren't put into play.

Also I love how this entire expansion doesn't happen without Yogg-Saron's help and Danuser just said "LALALALALALALALALALALALAA DIDNT HEAR YOU"

Again a main issue of this expansion is that the audience have literally just been waiting for the end of the expansion due to the premise of Zovaal which is a really horrible way to setup a story because now the players will just be like "Oh, okay I wait till the end of the expansion to finally get to know what Zovaal meant".

Guessing Denathrius and Argus are the bosses before the jailer.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

That would be cool. I would be fine with 3 or even 4 expansion set in azeroth with basic themes. I like grounded stuff more than cosmic anyways.

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Guessing Denathrius and Argus are the bosses before the jailer.

I'll take the next 10 years being on Azeroth, but I will say if they do anything to EK/Kalimdor it should be all at once. Otherwise it'll just make the problems worse where one continent Garrosh is Warchief, one continent there is no more a Warchief. Frankly the Horde is the ones at fault for most of the timeline fuckery in leveling I've realized.

Also those two bosses my guess is Denathrius, the Forge of Afterlives, then the Jailer.

[Kereberus]

Another meme news story that fizzles out in 24 hours. I sleep.

[Hitei]

Then he still would be around and we had to face him again. Blizzard never recycled an expansion‘s final boss. Even Garrosh was killed in a questline.

For me it feels like they really wanna close the Shadowlands chapter as soon as possible and forget about it entirely.

Just because he lives doesn't mean he remains the big bad, and while you're correct re: final bosses, I don't know if that really counts as a super firm pattern. There's only ever been the two final villains who have survived/remained a threat outside of their encounter, Garrosh and Kil'jaeden. Since both of them got completely different treatments--Garrosh killed the next expansion in a questline, and KJ returning with his faction as a third tier final boss--we can't really guess what will happen to any given 3rd final villain who survives their encounter.

If the Jailer is successful, I don't think it would be unreasonable for him to leave for a while and come back later down the line in a somewhat different iteration. His survival doesn't necessitate that he become the big bad, just one who is out there, much like KJ was in BC, or Sargeras was.

For example:

If his mucking about with the Sepulcher ends up breaking the cosmic balance as he wants and rewrites the laws of life and death. Perhaps that is simply the norm for the next "chapter" they keep alluding to. Warcraft becomes a universe where death is broken. Azeroth's world soul is killed, or near-killed so that all that's left is a shade or remnant like Argus' sort of helping but unable to do much, or even a boss down the line. The world is fundamentally altered--but not in the happy everything is being rebuilt and better way people expect a revamp to be.

Instead you end up with a universe a bit more like Diablo's in tone: everything is just shitty, undead and tormented spirits are no longer the result of the scourge or some specific evil nearby, but instead are just a normal part of the new way death works. Maybe there's a Souls-esque effect where since life and death don't work anymore, people just keep coming back but slowly lose more and more of themselves, becoming crazed undead, and then spirits and then just malevolent energy infesting places and passively spreading Zovaal's influence, so everyone's eventual fate is simply to become part of his will.

The world itself becomes destabilized by the cycle vanishing so you end up with zones completely and totally overrun with life, or totally bleak and lifeless. New cults worshipping Zovaal emerge, as well as groups and factions more based around the individual cosmic forces (potentially at odds with each other like Aldor and Scryer). With the Shadowlands no longer functioning as an isolated realm, it's just another plane and entities can come and go from it, etc. (potentially joining as races while they're at it). Old and new threats take the chance to seize regions or resurface.

Zovaal is no longer concerned with us or the planet that is no longer a threat and instead is busy off in the cosmos trying to find a way to fight off the incursions of the Light and Void, or trying to invade them directly. Expansions instead turn to dealing this new reality, not trying to stop Zovaal, who is way beyond anyone in the regular planes' capabilities. You have your revamp and dragon isles, Karesh, Lifelands, etc. With Zovaal just a distant malevolent force a la the Void Lords until potentially (if at all) he shows up far down the line in some super power curve Cosmic Forces expansion wherein he is no longer Zovaal, the Jailer, but Zovaal, the Lord of Death, the "true enemy". Maybe he isn't even the final boss, because even in his new place in the universe he still loses the the Void Lords and they are the real threat.

[huth]

Is it because he kinda shook off the domination after stabbing the Bastion lady?

I don't think it's about him teaching us how to resist it. It's more sensible if it's about the Primus analysing how he was being controlled to come up with a countermeasure.

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Then he still would be around and we had to face him again. Blizzard never recycled an expansion‘s final boss. Even Garrosh was killed in a questline.

For me it feels like they really wanna close the Shadowlands chapter as soon as possible and forget about it entirely.

I'm fairly sure Kil'jaeden was a raid boss twice. Not a final expansion boss the second time, but final boss of the penultimate raid still. I don't think Blizzard has a problem with reusing a raid boss character if it makes narrative sense.

[Ersula]

Guessing Denathrius and Argus are the bosses before the jailer.

Argus would be cool. But I'm starting to feel like Argus was a bit of a Red herring? Warbrave Oro is just in Bastion either to distract from the twist, or a literal mistake by the developers: Imagine instead, Sylvanas' suicide was what actually broke the Arbiter & that boss slot is going to Varian. What a twist.

And I honestly don't think Denathrius is going to show up again. The Dreadlords work for Denathrius but it's wrong to think Denathrius *actually* cares about Zovaal's plan nor would Zovaal seek his aid. "His role is complete" to quote the Jailer. They're just doing whatever's best in the moment & that's why he will likely be a WoW villain long after this expansion is over. Just like Azshara.

[Lady Atia]

I'll take the next 10 years being on Azeroth, but I will say if they do anything to EK/Kalimdor it should be all at once. Otherwise it'll just make the problems worse where one continent Garrosh is Warchief, one continent there is no more a Warchief. Frankly the Horde is the ones at fault for most of the timeline fuckery in leveling I've realized.

Also those two bosses my guess is Denathrius, the Forge of Afterlives, then the Jailer.

Why would they make Denathrius another raid boss especially if we get the "3D-printed Proto Eternal Ones" already in the raid? They originally wanted him to die but kept him alive because people loved the voice actor, so I guess they will keep him and the Nathrezim thread for a future Expansion. Also we already deal with Mal'ganis in SOFO.

[Sondrelk]

Why would they make Denathrius another raid boss especially if we get the "3D-printed Proto Eternal Ones" already in the raid? They originally wanted him to die but kept him alive because people loved the voice actor, so I guess they will keep him and the Nathrezim thread for a future Expansion. Also we already deal with Mal'ganis in SOFO.

They could make Denathrius a raid boss just to really play on the metahumor of the connection to Kael'thas, the supreme example of suddenly returning as a raid boss.
I could definitely see it being a thing as well. Denathrius returns, makes a similar speech to Kael'thas in Magisters Terrace and that is basically the joke.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Why would they make Denathrius another raid boss especially if we get the "3D-printed Proto Eternal Ones" already in the raid? They originally wanted him to die but kept him alive because people loved the voice actor, so I guess they will keep him and the Nathrezim thread for a future Expansion. Also we already deal with Mal'ganis in SOFO.

He doesn't rise high enough threat-wise to be a dangling thread so most people assume he was left alive to be used as raid fodder later.