Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

And yes, that is possible. See RPGs like Diviinity Original Sin which have different difficulties and cater to both the low level CRPG player AND the hardcore skilled player. An even better example and very fitting to Blizzard would be Diablo. You have 10 different difficulty levels, and you gear up in level 1 for level 2, and if you are a good player you skip the first 5 levels. And if you are a great player you even skip the first 8 levels. That is actually the way to go.

So WoW does not have different difficulties in raids and M+?

[Miffinat0r]

Actually, they have lost all kind of players between the two extremes. Both normal players and casual players. The reason is they cater only to those who look for no skill at all or to those who look for organized high profile gameplay.

They have lost million of customers, because they literally cater to meme ideas of what players are rather than valeuing the diversity the playerbase of WoW has.

And sure, you can cater to many different playstyles. Every modern RPG does that. You have a story mode, you have a normal mode, a hard mode and a deadly mode in many RPGs. My dream would be we had difficulties for every playstyle and support for every group size starting at 1 in WoW. Means, you could progress in your content you like without ever feeling the need to play content you would want to avoid.

And yes, that is possible. See RPGs like Diviinity Original Sin which have different difficulties and cater to both the low level CRPG player AND the hardcore skilled player. An even better example and very fitting to Blizzard would be Diablo. You have 10 different difficulty levels, and you gear up in level 1 for level 2, and if you are a good player you skip the first 5 levels. And if you are a great player you even skip the first 8 levels. That is actually the way to go.

But in those RPGs, the rewards are the same no matter what the difficulty, the only thing that separates them is how you play because the difficulty changes the meta for the game, and achievements. But the rewards, and the story are the same across all difficulties.

[uzira]

Isnt the exciting news Mike was talking about just the Microsoft thing?

[Makabreska]

Isnt the exciting news Mike was talking about just the Microsoft thing?

You mean the stuff everybody already knows about? Mate please.

[Kiivar86]

Isnt the exciting news Mike was talking about just the Microsoft thing?

He says that he has exciting things to announce, and that was already announced, so don't think it'd be that.

[Raetary]

Isnt the exciting news Mike was talking about just the Microsoft thing?

No, that was news from 3 days ago.

He's clearly talking about content announcements:

We also know we need to deliver content to our players on a more regular basis and innovate both in and beyond our existing games. We have some exciting things to announce, and I’ll be sharing more next week.

[uzira]

No, that was news from 3 days ago.

He's clearly talking about content announcements:

Okay I haven’t seen that part. Thanks

[Jokubas]

I agree that the game needs to have avenues for a wide variety of skill levels, but I've been concerned that the multiple difficulties in World of Warcraft indirectly hinder that plan in practice.

The problem is that making sure each of those difficulties is properly balanced for each of wildly varying skill levels is an extremely intensive task. It's not just a matter of copying the content and shifting all the numbers by a certain percentage. A ton of work goes into making sure each difficulty of raids is a fair challenge for its target demographic. Work that perhaps could have gone into different kinds of content, or even just more raids.

Also, difficulty alone doesn't account for playstyle, which often go hand-in-hand. It's been public knowledge for a long time that raiding is statistically far more niche than its treatment would imply. In theory it sounds noble to make sure that everyone can experience the raids no matter what their skill level. In practice it means the time you could be spending on balancing content for the people who aren't into raiding is spent balancing a version of raids for them on the off chance they do.

I'm very happy about Looking for Raid. Dragon Soul was the first time I ever saw the climax of the story in World of Warcraft when it was current content and not common knowledge long-since-spoiled. However, I'm only happy about it because raids are the only place to get the story, and I'm occasionally required to go there for some quests and rewards as well. I don't like raiding. The organization and group size and time commitments are things that bring me anxiety, not enjoyment. It's not my playstyle, regardless of difficulty.

You could even argue it's discouraged me from staying subscribed in a way that's become so subconsciously normal for me that it didn't even occur to me until I was writing this post. I'm so used to the big story moments being locked away from me until long after they're common knowledge (even with Looking for Raid, the wings are rolled out so slowly that they've even outright spoiled the conclusion in-world before LFR players even had a chance to see it), that I find no real incentive to experience these things in-game. I watch cutscenes the moment they're revealed or datamined not simply because I follow the game that closely, but because I know it's going to be months or maybe even years before I experience some raids (I usually wait until I can solo or duo them, because I actually enjoy that).

[Edward Wu]

I think Torghast is not so bad.

But since its like a giant undead prison and you are exploring from floor to floor.

After few runs you kinda know what to expect.

Maybe they should add more "surprises" since in so many floors you could find anything there.

Maybe like few areas which could look like from stormwind, or burning legion, or old gods, etc etc.

Like most of the floors would be undead but just some parts of it would be surprise and different.

Or maybe enemies from SL zones, like black kyrians etc.

Since whole Maw is kind of chaotic like Maelstrom whirlpool etc ... anything can happen there.

Basically something De Other Side Dungeon.

The problem with Torghast is that they tied it to an unfun grind resource that you never felt excited about acquiring, just kinda plodding along until you got your legendary/could upgrade it. That, along with what I think is that the majority of people have run Torghast solo, which I think is a lesser experience to group Torghast.

Torghast should have been a modern take on MoP's 3-man scenarios. Make it a fixed 3-man thing you can queue for as well as find a manual group for, and then build the content off the group play, like for instance giving Torghast powers intra-class synergy. That could have been really cool. M+ borrows from this and keeps itself fresh because each dungeon run is never the same due to the people you play with. Torghast runs felt very stale because they were very static. I guess that's why they tried to remedy this with Twisting Corridors but it wasn't enough.

It's crazy but I think people enjoyed 8.3's horrific visions runs more than Torghast, which is weird since it predates it design-wise. They bungled it somewhere along the way.

[Jokubas]

It's crazy but I think people enjoyed 8.3's horrific visions runs more than Torghast, which is weird since it predates it design-wise. They bungled it somewhere along the way.

Torshast is really weird. I think it's a great idea in theory, and in practice it carries through on a lot of that potential, but it's just got some glaring issues.

Mostly, I just want to see it improved in the future. I think I mentioned it before, but my brother and I imagined a Torghast-like feature placed in a more timeless location like the Caverns of Time (no pun intended) or even just some "Adventurer's Guild" that you "depart from", that could have content added to it every once and awhile, new wings themed to whatever is relevant at the time.

The first thing that stood out to me about Torghast was how overly cautious it came across. Part of its draw was supposed to be earning these temporary yet extremely exciting powers that would break the game anywhere else. While some classes got some amazing combos, other classes got super boring or even mostly utility stuff that made it a slog to repeat or tackle the harder things as.

The scaling was also super weird. My friends and I felt the solo or small group essence was finally something up our alley, but the difficulty could swing wildly. Sometimes one of our friends would be struggling with a solo run of something so one of us would join up to help them, but it would only make it worse because the bad guys suddenly turned into huge health sponges and one extra person doesn't fully compensate for that (especially if they're one of the classes with utility-focused powers).

[Wadrak]

It's crazy but I think people enjoyed 8.3's horrific visions runs more than Torghast, which is weird since it predates it design-wise. They bungled it somewhere along the way.

Yeah ... thats my impression as well that players enjoyed Visions more then Torghast.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

It's crazy but I think people enjoyed 8.3's horrific visions runs more than Torghast, which is weird since it predates it design-wise. They bungled it somewhere along the way.

Visions had much better rewards than Torghast. That certainly helped. If Torghast offered gear and more fun cosmetics, I'd have had a much better time doing it.

[TheFirstOnes]

"The few of these mysterious creatures that remain appear to be impossibly old, almost timeless. Perhaps they were created by the First Ones, because no schematic to synthesize these has yet been discovered."

Oooo

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Torshast is really weird. I think it's a great idea in theory, and in practice it carries through on a lot of that potential, but it's just got some glaring issues.

Mostly, I just want to see it improved in the future. I think I mentioned it before, but my brother and I imagined a Torghast-like feature placed in a more timeless location like the Caverns of Time (no pun intended) or even just some "Adventurer's Guild" that you "depart from", that could have content added to it every once and awhile, new wings themed to whatever is relevant at the time.

The first thing that stood out to me about Torghast was how overly cautious it came across. Part of its draw was supposed to be earning these temporary yet extremely exciting powers that would break the game anywhere else. While some classes got some amazing combos, other classes got super boring or even mostly utility stuff that made it a slog to repeat or tackle the harder things as.

The scaling was also super weird. My friends and I felt the solo or small group essence was finally something up our alley, but the difficulty could swing wildly. Sometimes one of our friends would be struggling with a solo run of something so one of us would join up to help them, but it would only make it worse because the bad guys suddenly turned into huge health sponges and one extra person doesn't fully compensate for that (especially if they're one of the classes with utility-focused powers).

Yeah they turn into ghastly sponges the more players you bring in but it is fun to do by yourself if you don't have anyone to run with at the time. I really wish they'd bring the Torghast Tower along with us but they tend to discard some features and consider it a failure each time(Now that may not be incorrect but it feels like it).

[Wadrak]

Yeah they turn into ghastly sponges the more players you bring in but it is fun to do by yourself if you don't have anyone to run with at the time. I really wish they'd bring the Torghast Tower along with us but they tend to discard some features and consider it a failure each time(Now that may not be incorrect but it feels like it).

I mean if they don't make it more fun and better at the end of the SL I doubt it will be better on next expansion in new version.

[Sharby]

Torshast is really weird. I think it's a great idea in theory, and in practice it carries through on a lot of that potential, but it's just got some glaring issues.

Mostly, I just want to see it improved in the future. I think I mentioned it before, but my brother and I imagined a Torghast-like feature placed in a more timeless location like the Caverns of Time (no pun intended) or even just some "Adventurer's Guild" that you "depart from", that could have content added to it every once and awhile, new wings themed to whatever is relevant at the time.

The first thing that stood out to me about Torghast was how overly cautious it came across. Part of its draw was supposed to be earning these temporary yet extremely exciting powers that would break the game anywhere else. While some classes got some amazing combos, other classes got super boring or even mostly utility stuff that made it a slog to repeat or tackle the harder things as.

The scaling was also super weird. My friends and I felt the solo or small group essence was finally something up our alley, but the difficulty could swing wildly. Sometimes one of our friends would be struggling with a solo run of something so one of us would join up to help them, but it would only make it worse because the bad guys suddenly turned into huge health sponges and one extra person doesn't fully compensate for that (especially if they're one of the classes with utility-focused powers).

I mean in my opinion most of the expansion features suffer from being "too safe."


WoW in general is "too safe" because they fucked up trying to innovate so many times they can't afford to do it anymore, as a result you get a stable, but stale game that retains current players but does little to entice new ones.


There really isn't anything shiny or special about Shadowlands as a whole. It was actually the first expansion launch that didn't really move me much at all (I've played all of them.)

I recall when we first got the big info-dump on Shadowlands some people said that an expansion didn't need a big draw or shiny feature and that as long as the systems and class gameplay were good the expansion would be good.


Well, both the systems and the class design for the most part are pretty good and yet the game is still... just ok.

[ChairmanKaga]

Visions had much better rewards than Torghast. That certainly helped. If Torghast offered gear and more fun cosmetics, I'd have had a much better time doing it.

If nothing else the aesthetic was much better. Torg is dull to play and to look at.

[Jokubas]

I recall when we first got the big info-dump on Shadowlands some people said that an expansion didn't need a big draw or shiny feature and that as long as the systems and class gameplay were good the expansion would be good.

Yeah, I ended up enjoying the beginning of Shadowlands more than I thought I would, but none of the selling points interested me at all. As I pointed out even back then, the most exciting thing to me was the new customization system, which was never even listed in the official expansion features for some reason (they listed other things that were added for all players like the overhauled leveling, not just expansion-only features). I mean, customization doesn't carry the actual expansion itself, but I went from having one or two pseudo-alts to six or seven full alts between new options that made me way more excited for them and the streamlined leveling that allowed me to skip the things I dreaded.

It actually feels a little surreal when I think about the fact that Shadowlands is when that was added. It feels like a million years ago, although that's probably in part because they have barely touched any customization since.

I'd love to expect tons more options and the rest of the heritage armor and such in the next expansion, but without knowing why Shadowlands basically dropped those things I don't feel optimistic.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I am a bit disappointed we haven't seen a decent fake screenshot or logos at this point.

I'd do it but it's too much work.

[Jokubas]

If nothing else the aesthetic was much better. Torg is dull to play and to look at.

Yeah, that was a major goal in our Torghast sequel brainstorming. If it was a hub that could be used for any theme, like an Adventurer's Guild you queue from, you could do things like a tileset on a train like Grimrail Depot, a forest tileset with dense growth limited your path, a psychadelic tileset on floating islands in the Twisting Nether, etc. The sky's the limit if it isn't shackled to the expansion it was introduced in, which is a mistake that keeps being made with interesting new features.