Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[UndedoKoleda]

Also everyone around anduin has had a relationship with arthas. Genn, Varian, Jaina, Calia. Even Garrosh points out similarities between the two. So of course he knows who arthas is. I don't know where this thought of arthas being an unknown mystery to the world comes from.

Not to mention Bolvar, who acted as Anduin's Regen Lord, while Varian was missing, and "died" fighting the Scourge(Arthas).

[Sondrelk]

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...-vendor-2-cdn/

9.2.5 already on vendor 2 cdn

Seems to me like they probably want to get it our ASAP so they can have players focus entirely on the 10.0 Alpha and Beta once that opens.

[Ersula]

One of the quests concludes Uther was ultimately not in control of Arthas choices and fate.

His responsibility in him becoming a fallen paladin, yes. But he's pretty explicitly guilty of throwing him into the maw.

That's the theme: Arthas' violence against Sylvanas is what gave her an excuse to do the things she did. The same way Uther justified throwing him into the maw. The same way Tyrande justified her rampage. The same way Jaina was planning on annihilating Orgrimmar after Theramore was destroyed. Punitive justice just perpetuates a cycle of violence.

It's pretty messy, but I get the ideas they were going for. Especially the way the Jailer's "manipulation" & "domination" about how much agency people had at all during this time. Arthas took the blade by choice. All the choices that led him to Frostmorne were selfish. All these characters faced a path that led to their own destruction. Including the rather on-the-nose contrivance of the Night Warrior literally killing you after you get your vengeance. Garrosh & Arthas had opportunities to stop, but they rejected them at every turn. Whereas Tyrande, Uther, Jaina & Sylvanas chose to make a change: That's what redemption is: It's not an "arc," it's a path with no end.

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Seems to me like they probably want to get it our ASAP so they can have players focus entirely on the 10.0 Alpha and Beta once that opens.

Or finger's crossed, pre-order allied races ala 7.3.5

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Either way, the emphasis Sylvanas puts on the Menethil name I think is a sure bet Calia will be doing something big soonish, as to directly contradict the 'last whispers' fading line.

You know it's purely figurative right? And fitting, because even Calia prefers to be known simply as Calia, not Calia Menethil. Arthas tarnished the family name quite completely.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

You know it's purely figurative right? And fitting, because even Calia prefers to be known simply as Calia, not Calia Menethil. Arthas tarnished the family name quite completely.

I challenge you to actually explain how it could be anything BUT figuratively.

Why are you saying this to me?

[Zankai27]

That was the joke.

Also, really the third time. Medivh showed up to show that mortals could handle things as he said at the end of Reign of Chaos and then the story response after was "nah, people like us being helped by dragons and gods too much. It prints money and WC3 can't be a story ender if we're gonna make an MMO. Disregard."

Fourth time, right? Isn't this basically what the Titans said to us when they bade us farewell and used their power to trap Sargeras to eternally play Cards Against Humanity with them and Illidan?

Side note, not bashing that cutscene, Velen's sigh at the end is legit my favorite moment in the series.

[Ersula]

Not to mention Bolvar, who acted as Anduin's Regen Lord, while Varian was missing, and "died" fighting the Scourge(Arthas).

I think you're confusing "we met once" as "being a major figure in their life." Arthas & Anduin story's barely intersect. Except in the way that there was a stone in a sword that turned him emo.

[ro9ue]

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...-vendor-2-cdn/

9.2.5 already on vendor 2 cdn

Other than the cross faction stuff is there any other content coming with that that we know of yet?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I really wonder why they brought Calia to Oribos

At this point it feels like just to remind us she exists.

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Other than the cross faction stuff is there any other content coming with that that we know of yet?

Nope, nothing. Probably some class balance from the raid, though.

Maybe a prologue-to-the-prologue for 10.0 if folks wanna get really spicy.

[Ersula]

It was obvious they were setting the stage for her as the new Forsaken leader after Sylvanas but I think they are either reconsidering or reworking it.

The realization that it makes no sense to have an Alliance sympathizer as a Horde faction leader. Sometimes they just add new characters they think are cool. They made Lilian Voss an homage to a mtg character it seems like Calia is also an homage to Teysa Karlov, the Orzhov paragon.

Perhaps they want to feature her in an evil Naaru story, or that early Shadowlands builds had Lilian dialog that was eventually cut completely. It seems Calia could have been involved in a storyline about Lilian & that tidesage who died during BFA.

[Raetary]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Please, i'm begging you.
No more!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because Anduin was never in some elaborate moral quandary. He understood right and wrong, tried his absolute best to do the right thing and then was forcibly mind controlled and made to do terrible things. This cinematic wasn't about character development for him, it was about him breaking free, which he did, in the entire first half. His reaction and development re: the things that he was forced to do is not something to deal with in 90 seconds in a cinematic immediately after being freed, it's something for him to deal with in the years to come as it changes his approach and attitude, and who he is as a leader (or even not a leader if it results in him permanently stepping down).

So the second half is about that last little glimmer of Arthas, and since Arthas himself in this tiny fragmented form is unable to actually speak, his end is told through the person whose entire character was created by Arthas' actions and who was the only one in the group of people so heavily connected that still hasn't quite let go of lingering resentment.

Like I get not liking Sylvanas. I've disliked her since Vanilla/WC3, but this is the one case where Sylvanas makes the absolute MOST sense to be the one doing something. Not Jaina, who has long sense moved past Arthas and is worried about Anduin, or Uther, whose storyline was all about him figuring out how to let go of Arthas, or Anduin who is dealing with his own shit and whose only connection to Arthas is him being the soul used for the mourneblade forging. Your other (absolutely terrible) option here is to have Arthas himself come back and end his own storyline, which is just awful. It was a much wiser narrative decision to have his last appearance be just a fragment of an echo fading away, seen through the eyes of the one person that spent her entire un-life haunted by and hating that echo.

That's the problem of the constant Sylvanas bashing, even when it makes sense for her to be relevant on a scene, people will hate it simply because it *is* Sylvanas.

Even I would have put a bit less focus on her, but that is entirely reactionary from my part to appease the fanbase that has a hate boner against her.

[Ersula]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Based solely on the datamined animations, it looks like "tyrande's judgement" is for her to clear out the maw of all souls. Considering players have been doing this for 2 years for all we know she's going to be gone a few weeks. She's going to roll up in the middle of next expansion like Gandalf the white.

Personally I'm hoping for the Undead Night Elves & Undead High elves (including Sanlayn. The blood princes had unique features but the other Sanlayn were identical to Dark Rangers. No reason why one allied race couldn't represent both groups) being allied races soon.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

They have an entire lineup of characters who have just as much, if not more reason to hate Arthas there, but instead we focus on Sylvanas who is probably among those with the least amount of reason to interract with him.

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

We have Uther, who trained him and similarly to Jaina left him when he needed him most. Who saw his country fall at Arthas' hands, and whose hatred of him caused him to abandon his principles and take ultimate vengeance by ensuring Arthas suffered as much as possible.

JFC. They didn't *left* Arthas; they couldn't bear to stand by him when he was utterly hell bent in commiting such an atrocity in the name of self righteousness. Do you actually think they were wrong for leaving? That is their fault?

[username993720]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Probably what's going to happen.

[Ersula]

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

As the old addage states, "Behind every great man is a strong woman stopping him from going on a killing spree." /s

JFC what is this? You're comparing the lady he dated shortly to the lady whom he decimated her people, destroyed the sunwell & killed, turning her into an undead servant of a cosmic monster.

The argument that Jaina or Uther deserved the final word over Sylvanas is bad.

[Ersula]

They're also implying that Jaina was wrong to want no part in wholesale slaughter of innocent people and that somehow it's all her fault and if she had just stood by her psychotic man then the Lich King never would have happened.

I do understand that that's is how Jaina feels, even if that feeling is unfair to herself, and that Arthas is a big part of her life, but both Uther & Jaina would recognize, sheesh, Arthas did way more fucked up shit to Sylvanas: And the cutscene reflects that. I feel like the Anduin defeat cinematic is easily the least *confusing* cinematic of the BFA/Shadowlands era.

[Sondrelk]

JFC. They didn't *left* Arthas; they couldn't bear to stand by him when he was utterly hell bent in commiting such an atrocity in the name of self righteousness. Do you actually think they were wrong for leaving? That is their fault?

Both Jaina and Uther feel like they abandoned him, which is what makes their dynamic work. They were not necessarily wrong to leave him when he was about to do what they considered his greatest mistake, but that doesnt preventthem from feeling like they made a mistake regardless, or that they could have stopped him if they just stood there a bit longer debating.

Jaina has been tortured by this choice her entire life where she has been wondering whether she could have stopped this, and Uther has similarly been tortured by his choice to leave Arthas.

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

[Nyel]

You know what I find funny: Jaina was shunned for her wish to remove Horde from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. And all that after Theramore was bombed by a Horde leader. On the same hand Sylvanas wiped Teldrassil and all seem to be fine with her because she’s showing remorse. Even Tyrande.

[UndedoKoleda]

I think you're confusing "we met once" as "being a major figure in their life." Arthas & Anduin story's barely intersect. Except in the way that there was a stone in a sword that turned him emo.

That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

[Ersula]

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

She says that specifically: The scene is one of solace, not condemnation. The sentiment these three people have for Arthas used to be hate, but now it's pity.

She literally says "I became you." and that's not "infinitely worse" because Arthas allied with the Jailer in the exact same way. It's unclear how much agency Arthas actually had (just like Sylvanas) but Arthas' selfish choices came before he died, rather than after, in the case of Sylvanas. That's the only difference. That and now Sylvanas is choosing to change: Arthas could have changed at any point during Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne but he didn't: That's what makes Sylvanas marginally superior to Arthas.

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That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

Which was not the point of my post.