Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Hypester]

Nah, it was the revamp people generally remember fondly, though obviously with a game that's probably been played by well over 20+ million people total you're going to get different answers.

Worgen and Goblins weren't implemented all that great, in my opinion. They're kinda swiftly dropped and don't gel in the context of the overarching narrative the way the draenei, blood elves, Pandaren, and even KT/Zandalari are. The worgen are just kind of shit into Darkshore and the resolution of threads started in Gilneas are resolved in a zone for the completely different faction. The goblins get Azshara but it's mostly irrelevant zaniness and putting Gallywix in charge remains a baffling decision in-universe even if he's highly entertaining out of universe.

I don't think the revamp aged well. It's very short sighted and ruins a lot of themes of the zones to make them incredibly specific as opposed to evergreen or just "the old zone but things kept moving" (see Desolace and WPL, two actually good revamps IMO). And the pop culture...

One reason I am hoping for a second revamp is to get rid of the pop culture stuff from Cata and return zones like Redridge and Hillsbrad back to the way they were in some regards.

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, it was the revamp people generally remember fondly, though obviously with a game that's probably been played by well over 20+ million people total you're going to get different answers.

Worgen and Goblins weren't implemented all that great, in my opinion. They're kinda swiftly dropped and don't gel in the context of the overarching narrative the way the draenei, blood elves, Pandaren, and even KT/Zandalari are. The worgen are just kind of shit into Darkshore and the resolution of threads started in Gilneas are resolved in a zone for the completely different faction. The goblins get Azshara but it's mostly irrelevant zaniness and putting Gallywix in charge remains a baffling decision in-universe even if he's highly entertaining out of universe.

They're good races but they've felt so under baked and irrelevant since right after they enter. Even Greymane largely exists to play grumpy foil and Gallywix is a background meme.

The Worgen vs Forsaken thing was cool even if Forsaken were handled pretty horribly after Wrath IMO. The problem is that it's dropped incredibly fast because they didn't feel like continuing any racial stories from Mists-Legion for whatever reason.

[Civciv]

Aren't Worgen and Goblins as well as their zones like... the ONLY thing people like today about Cata?

Well... I might be the only one but... I really like Dragon Soul, esp spine of deathwing fight.

[Vakir]

It definitely didn't age well, but outside of nostalgia factors, a lot of the original game didn't either. It's a reflection more of the priority and tone of the developers more than anything (pop cultural bullshit in 2004 was seen as much cuter than in the cynical 2020s). Zone flow and quests greatly improved and I'd argue it was a good shift...at the time.

It would be lovely to see us get a proper revamp to fix a lot of those artifacts and get it back to the now but I doubt they're inclined to do it with how insanely ambitious it was.

Worgen vs. Forsaken was great, but it strongly favors the Forsaken in terms of story telling quality. Silverpine is one of the best zones ever made. Gilneas is one of the most disappointing and the plot is just kind of dropped to go fuck around with Malfurion.

[Nyel]

Aren't Worgen and Goblins as well as their zones like... the ONLY thing people like today about Cata?

No, the dungeons and raids were well received (except 4.3 stuff).

[draugril]

Wow is at a point where they do need to deliver on actual content and focus a bit less on their systems.

Even though you could probably call housing a system, i'd agree that both new classes, new things to do in the open world, possible class revamps to make them feel fresh and yes, even though i dont really think its super needed, housing.

All of that is too much if blizzard spends 60% of their developement time on hatching the next covenants. If they have listened to their fans however, i think this should be well within their reach.

I think Pocopoc encapsulates everything wrong with modern Blizzard, for me at least. Here's this little personal robot! You can customize him to perform to your liking, upgrade him, unlock and choose his aesthetics... all great stuff! But 10.0 is coming. And the moment it hits... all that investment goes right out the window. It's thrown out. So... why should I get invested now when you know from day one that the system you're engaging with it 100% going to be disposed of?

[Hypester]

I think Pocopoc encapsulates everything wrong with modern Blizzard, for me at least. Here's this little personal robot! You can customize him to perform to your liking, upgrade him, unlock and choose his aesthetics... all great stuff! But 10.0 is coming. And the moment it hits... all that investment goes right out the window. It's thrown out. So... why should I get invested now when you know from day one that the system you're engaging with it 100% going to be disposed of?

While I understand your point I think they nailed exactly what to do with Pocopoc: you can buy a pet version of him with Cyphers that keeps whatever look you choose for him. So Pocopoc is technically evergreen.

If the problem is that his "progression" doesn't carry over... thats not necessary IMO. I really have no problems with how the cypher system works outside of it not being account-wide, I don't feel as if any of the ZM upgrades are something I will feel worse without next year.

[Varodoc]

I truly do not understand, why are people here ignoring the fact that the "Thalassian Conflict" plotline, so to say, is one of the longest and oldest in the game? Already in Classic we had High elves who remained loyal to the Alliance while the rest of the country was closed-off and left the Alliance at the end of the Second War. In TBC the Sin'dorei joined the Horde, In WotLk the Silver Covenant are introduced as the main militant faction of the Alliance elves, their rivalry continues in Cataclysm at the gates of Zul'aman, and culminates in bloodshed at the Purge of Dalaran. But two events have changed everything.

The Return of Alleria Windrunner has changed everything, the legendary hero of Quel'Thalas and eldest sibling of the Windrunners, always looked up by her countrymen, she has charisma, popularity, and strength that Vereesa could never hope to match, giving rekindled hope to the Alliance elves.

The Rise of the Ren'dorei, the "Children of the Void" led by Magister Umbric, who were cast out and exiled, but turned defeat into victory by finding a source of great power. For the first time, we have a faction of Thalassian elves in the Alliance who have grown so much in numbers and strength as to become playable and encompassing many Quel'dorei scholars and Sin'dorei travellers. The Silver Covenant could never match the Ren'dorei in numbers, resources, and strength, which is why they were never made playable.

Now the storyline started all the way back in Classic will soon reach the culmination as the Alliance will march on Quel'Thalas and reclaim it for the Alliance, as it should have been done long ago, when Lor'themar Theron plotted to rejoin the Alliance.

[Hypester]

It would be lovely to see us get a proper revamp to fix a lot of those artifacts and get it back to the now but I doubt they're inclined to do it with how insanely ambitious it was.

The problem was (AFAIK) the revamp was made in the span of one or two dev cycles, hence why the expansion went to shit.

Considering you can now count the number of model updates needed for a revamp on two hands, as well as the existence of old world texture updates already existing from the last several expansions, that shouldn't be a problem again.

[AngerFork]

I think Pocopoc encapsulates everything wrong with modern Blizzard, for me at least. Here's this little personal robot! You can customize him to perform to your liking, upgrade him, unlock and choose his aesthetics... all great stuff! But 10.0 is coming. And the moment it hits... all that investment goes right out the window. It's thrown out. So... why should I get invested now when you know from day one that the system you're engaging with it 100% going to be disposed of?

I'm kind of amazed Blizz hasn't added in some sort of Pepe Whistle-like toy for him, so that you can have him with all of those customizations as something to bring out in future expansions.

[Hypester]

I'm kind of amazed Blizz hasn't added in some sort of Pepe Whistle-like toy for him, so that you can have him with all of those customizations as something to bring out in future expansions.

It exists, it's just kind of hidden.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=191039/pocopoc-traveler

[Revamp Man]

i think if cata just used the zidormii stuff for the zone revamps there would have been less bitching

[Arai]

The problem was (AFAIK) the revamp was made in the span of one or two dev cycles, hence why the expansion went to shit.

Considering you can now count the number of model updates needed for a revamp on two hands, as well as the existence of old world texture updates already existing from the last several expansions, that shouldn't be a problem again.

I dont get the argument anyhow. Back then they had far less technology (yes meme) and workarounds unlike today but their team is also substantially larger since WoD/Legion. And as you already said, many assets have already been made.
I mean look at Shadowlands, the amount of quests available with each Covenant is actually quite big since many of them involve scripts, etc.
Also the revamped zones don't have to be even close in detail to the zones we currently get which are overdesigned disney themeparks.

It's definitely possible but I don't think blizzard will do it since they wouldn't know how to implement the revamped zones in progression/expansion properly so they don't feel like wasted assets.
I think the key here would be a fully revamped Profession system that is a 4th meaningful way to gear besides M+/PvP/Raid. Maybe tied with another new feature besides the WQs system we already have.

[AngerFork]

It exists, it's just kind of hidden.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=191039/pocopoc-traveler

Oh nice, thanks! Didn't know that was a thing.

I suppose that means I should be doing more ZM.

[draugril]

While I understand your point I think they nailed exactly what to do with Pocopoc: you can buy a pet version of him with Cyphers that keeps whatever look you choose for him. So Pocopoc is technically evergreen.

If the problem is that his "progression" doesn't carry over... thats not necessary IMO. I really have no problems with how the cypher system works outside of it not being account-wide, I don't feel as if any of the ZM upgrades are something I will feel worse without next year.

I stand corrected!I was actually completely unaware of that, and that is indeed a good half-measure solution.

But to elaborate a bit more on my point, I still find this to be problematic. We get a souvenir instead of a new, ongoing element of WoW gameplay. All of the effort that went into developing the system for Pocopoc should be adopted in the future - customizable companions should be a system in and of themselves, new expansions introducing new companions and still allowing you to use the old ones if that's your preference. But, given their track record, why should I have any faith that this will be an ongoing feature? Granted, this example isn't as good as it could have been, given what you told me, but I think you get my greater point.

And the immediate counter I'm always hit with is, "Well, if they add an ongoing feature, they need to commit to it and dedicate resources to it." My answer? Yes! Absolutely! Why have we set such a low bar for them when they're making more profit than ever before?! A twenty year old game should be an absolute behemoth of features and content, requiring an insane amount of resources to maintain - resources that Blizzard absolutely has. We just haven't given them a reason to be ambitious when we accept rote, formulaic content that is reset every two years, invalidating everything that came before with every X.0 patch.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh nice, thanks! Didn't know that was a thing.

I suppose that means I should be doing more ZM.

I think that our ignorance is indicative of WoW's issues. We're so used to not getting invested in these systems that we continue to not get invested, even if they're making them incrementally better.

[Hypester]

And the immediate counter I'm always hit with is, "Well, if they add an ongoing feature, they need to commit to it and dedicate resources to it." My answer? Yes! Absolutely! Why have we set such a low bar for them when they're making more profit than ever before?! A twenty year old game should be an absolute behemoth of features and content, requiring an insane amount of resources to maintain - resources that Blizzard absolutely has. We just haven't given them a reason to be ambitious when we accept rote, formulaic content that is reset every two years, invalidating everything that came before with every X.0 patch.

I'm not sure Blizzard has had the resources people think they do, the years from Overwatch launch to now have been kind of shaky and content-light outside of Legion and game development across the company has been very very very slow. NOW they do with Microsoft, so they no longer have an excuse, but I think the "small indie company" jokes actually had some truth to them that Blizz actually did not have the resources people thought they did (likely due to standing next to a giant like Activision).

Irrelevant to the discussion, and everything points to them making things have longevity based on the past few patches, but wanted to mention that. I don't think 8.3-9.2 happened like it did solely due to laziness or incompetence.

[draugril]

I'm not sure Blizzard has had the resources people think they do, the years from Overwatch launch to now have been kind of shaky and content-light outside of Legion and game development across the company has been very very very slow. NOW they do with Microsoft, so they no longer have an excuse, but I think the "small indie company" jokes actually had some truth to them that Blizz actually did not have the resources people thought they did (likely due to standing next to a giant like Activision).

They have a lot of liquidity that could be going back into the product rather than into Bobby & Co.'s already overstuffed pockets. Publicly available information. But this is the standard that we've set, the expectations that have been set, and it would be nigh impossible to change now, so my moaning is pointless.

[Wangming]

Aren't Worgen and Goblins as well as their zones like... the ONLY thing people like today about Cata?

Oh I loved worgen and still do. What I don't like is how irrelevant they were to the greater narrative. Shit, they had more stuff to do in Legion with Genn and Lorna is Sormheim, Darius Crowley as a warrior follower, Tess as a member of the Uncrowned and the Scythe of Elune the Balance Druid Artifact Weapon.

[Alanar]

I truly do not understand, why are people here ignoring the fact that the "Thalassian Conflict" plotline, so to say, is one of the longest and oldest in the game? Already in Classic we had High elves who remained loyal to the Alliance while the rest of the country was closed-off and left the Alliance at the end of the Second War. In TBC the Sin'dorei joined the Horde, In WotLk the Silver Covenant are introduced as the main militant faction of the Alliance elves, their rivalry continues in Cataclysm at the gates of Zul'aman, and culminates in bloodshed at the Purge of Dalaran. But two events have changed everything.

The Return of Alleria Windrunner has changed everything, the legendary hero of Quel'Thalas and eldest sibling of the Windrunners, always looked up by her countrymen, she has charisma, popularity, and strength that Vereesa could never hope to match, giving rekindled hope to the Alliance elves.

The Rise of the Ren'dorei, the "Children of the Void" led by Magister Umbric, who were cast out and exiled, but turned defeat into victory by finding a source of great power. For the first time, we have a faction of Thalassian elves in the Alliance who have grown so much in numbers and strength as to become playable and encompassing many Quel'dorei scholars and Sin'dorei travellers. The Silver Covenant could never match the Ren'dorei in numbers, resources, and strength, which is why they were never made playable.

Now the storyline started all the way back in Classic will soon reach the culmination as the Alliance will march on Quel'Thalas and reclaim it for the Alliance, as it should have been done long ago, when Lor'themar Theron plotted to rejoin the Alliance.

What you need to realise is that many people will just see this as some headcanon rp stuff you keep repeating.

Just call them void elves.. you make them more important then they really are. They are not ruling stormwind and Turalyon will still turn into some light lunatic eventually.

Just give it a rest.

[draugril]

I would not have been shocked if it was something like how FFXIV used to bring in the big bucks for SE but SE took all the money it made and gave it to anything else but XIV. Only recently did they change it.

If Acti-Blizz had been doing that with WoW for a while it would make sense but it's not something we would ever know for sure.

It just dawned on me that, if this is the case, it could indeed change. With Microsoft coming in, and management/oversight turning over, standard practices like this can change pretty quickly. On the other hand, the devil you know...

[Hypester]

I wanted to point out that I do not think the "they are removing expansion leveling campaigns" thing in the text leak for Dragonflight to be that odd, considering SL is the first expansion where you can just skip the leveling campaign completely on alts. That gives me the vibe that they are looking into changing leveling more than that and they probably have some solid data now on how many people skipped the leveling campaign in SL.