Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

You can get normal equivalent gear and 4 set without stepping foot into any instance.

I think perhaps part of the issue is that up to MoP you could get Normal equivalent gear but there was no Mythic. You were just one tier below max. WoD kept casuals at a much lower level AND gave them very little content. Legion did not really give certain access to that ilvl but there was always TF. BfA gave full heroic if you bothered with WM (easy conquest cap) and also had Visions (I won't count HC Warfronts because that was still something you had to PuG, even if vastly easier than anything else giving comparable gear).
Meanwhile SL required an extensive grind to get you to that ilvl with Korthia relics and a much easier grind with Cyphers (but no full gear).

Ultimately it's about the ilvl. And the argument ofc is that you don't really need that ilvl for that kind of content which is very much valid; you don't need it at all. But it definitely was a motivation to do content. I guess it's a psychological thing; people will not mind grinding for months if it gets them at just a bit below the best. They will not feel the same for something that's much further below.

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I'd argue it's also because of the fantasy trope being that dragons use red/orange fire to burn foes so making that a healing spell would be semi-jarring. While I think lorewise it would be more fitting for Green/Red to be healer and Blue/Bronze to be dps (arcane dot from blue snd then a bronze spell that makes the dot tick 3-5 times instantly due to rapid time or w/e etc) I think time-based healing is a cool concept that can separate them from other healers a bit so gameplay>lore happened again.

I think it can be done, you just need to work on the SFX more; use a cooler, more saturated flame color and make it swirl and envelop targets instead. I mean the phoenix is a beloved fantasy staple and they heal with fire.

[Khaza-R]

Ultimately it's about the ilvl. And the argument ofc is that you don't really need that ilvl for that kind of content which is very much valid; you don't need it at all. But it definitely was a motivation to do content. I guess it's a psychological thing; people will not mind grinding for months if it gets them at just a bit below the best. They will not feel the same for something that's much further below.

I would just add this is an issue with outdoor content. M+ you get better gear to push higher keys, raids you push higher difficulties. Outdoor content remains rather faceroll which I think contributes to the psychology of it not being rewarding.

They seem to be playing with addressing this in DF. From the interview with Ion he made it sound like they essentially want to add micro-dungeons back into the game. Which should in theory make progression for solo play feel rewarding. I don't know how they will handle it with sharding but it should be interesting to see what they come up with nonetheless.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Something I noted in the Holinka interview is them mixing up the green and red flight. They mention how "Ysera" is the one who healed people in Wrathgate when it was Alexstraza and the red flight. It is a shame that the red flight isn't the healing one as it is in lore. If I had to guess it is because of the similar reason why Mistweavers were originally Chi-ji themed but they didn't like red spell effects for healers so they made it jade serpent.

Linked time for reference:
https://youtu.be/6p7_6zBe7Lk?t=300

Red isn’t a healing flight in the lore even with there slip up red’s have always been burning people up and just having new life show up after the people in question are dead a lot like a forest fire seeding new life after consuming the old. The only exception there has ever been to this is bolvar and he’s a special case of being struck between life’s healing death not actually getting healed as such.

Greens have been the healing flight since wrath with the oculus mounts and that big one in ICC.

[rhorle]

Red isn’t a healing flight in the lore

“This is my gift: compassion for all living things. A drive to protect and nurture them. And the ability to heal that which others cannot, birth what others may not, and love even the unlovable--who surely need such grace more than any other souls.” — Eonar's blessing of the Red Aspect

Wowpedia doesn't cite that quote but you are wrong about the Red not being about healing in the lore.

[ChairmanKaga]

Something I noted in the Holinka interview is them mixing up the green and red flight. They mention how "Ysera" is the one who healed people in Wrathgate when it was Alexstraza and the red flight.

How did the red flight "heal" anyone at the Wrathgate? They burned away the new Blight and turned Bolvar into an undead permanently burned to a crisp.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

How did the red flight "heal" anyone at the Wrathgate? They burned away the new Blight and turned Bolvar into an undead permanently burned to a crisp.

It seems implied tbh reds being about Life and such. Yes obviously the reds burnt out a lot of the plague at Wrathgate but he didn't necessarily say the reds were healing at the wrathgate.

[Hitei]

“This is my gift: compassion for all living things. A drive to protect and nurture them. And the ability to heal that which others cannot, birth what others may not, and love even the unlovable--who surely need such grace more than any other souls.” — Eonar's blessing of the Red Aspect

Wowpedia doesn't cite that quote but you are wrong about the Red not being about healing in the lore.

They are stewards. Really closer to guardians/protectors (i.e. tanks) than dedicated restoration. Both at the Wrathgate and at their Dragonshrine, you can see that their approach is more like "prune away the disruptions to the balance, and from that death foster new life"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

“This is my gift: compassion for all living things. A drive to protect and nurture them. And the ability to heal that which others cannot, birth what others may not, and love even the unlovable--who surely need such grace more than any other souls.” — Eonar's blessing of the Red Aspect

Wowpedia doesn't cite that quote but you are wrong about the Red not being about healing in the lore.

If it doesn’t have a source there’s no way to know if it’s a canon quote or not, nor is there any context of “heal what others cannot” means as you could say she means purging corruption to heal the land like they do at the wrath gate not actually heal wounds.

[Makabreska]

How did the red flight "heal" anyone at the Wrathgate? They burned away the new Blight and turned Bolvar into an undead permanently burned to a crisp.

They saved Bolvar by burning out the plague, but these still were magical flames, so he got perma cooked in the process (while still being kept alive, mind you). Saurfang jr didn't get the treatment, and he got turned into a DK.

[rhorle]

Is it doesn’t have a source there’s no way to know if it’s a canon quote or not, nor is there any context of “heal what others cannot” means as you could say she means purging corruption to heal the land like they do at the wrath gate not actually heal wounds.

Googling it shows it appears in Twilight of the Aspects. I'm amazed that now we are arguing over if "Heal what others cannot" means healing or not. Seriously. Just admit you were wrong instead.

[Hitei]

They saved Bolvar by burning out the plague, but these still were magical flames, so he got perma cooked in the process. Saurfang jr didn't get the treatment, and he got turned into a DK.

Saving =/= healing though. He specifically wasn't healed, just shielded from death.

[ChairmanKaga]

They saved Bolvar by burning out the plague, but these still were magical flames, so he got perma cooked in the process (while still being kept alive, mind you). Saurfang jr didn't get the treatment, and he got turned into a DK.

Is Bolvar not an Undead? Mind you not a Scourge or a Forsaken but I thought he was (so far) a unique undead created by being blighted and dragonflamed not that he was alive in the traditional sense.
If only there was an expansion where they could have delved into this and (charred) fleshed him out a bit. Oh well.

[Kiria]

You and me both Between cancer taking our guild leader 5 years ago and covid taking a couple members...our guild has died. I am alone, I do not like nor do I raid or run dungeons...my choice. I enjoy questing, gathering, exploring....no hassle, no stress....just enjoy the game, don't worry about having to be the best this or that or having the best whatever...enjoy. It's a GAME...it affects your real life in no way. Play the way you want, do what you want and that means everyone. You're no better than me and I'm no better than you.

I am so sorry to hear about the horrible things that has befallen your guildmates, I hope you're doing ok in yourself it can't be easy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Googling it shows it appears in Twilight of the Aspects. I'm amazed that now we are arguing over if "Heal what others cannot" means healing or not. Seriously. Just admit you were wrong instead.

So you think every kind of healing is the same thing? That a forest fire burning away old and dying plants so new ones can grow is the same thing as mending a wound on a person?

Because both are healing but they are obviously still very different and the red's are known for one over the other.

[Raetary]

Not thematically including the reds in the healing spec just reeks of a lack of creativity.
They left the blacks out because they couldn't think of a way to distinguish them from the reds, so they just shoved the reds magic into the dps spec.

We could've got some nice, unique red healing related spell effects instead of just 'green healing spec #4'.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is Bolvar not an Undead? Mind you not a Scourge or a Forsaken but I thought he was (so far) a unique undead created by being blighted and dragonflamed not that he was alive in the traditional sense.
If only there was an expansion where they could have delved into this and (charred) fleshed him out a bit. Oh well.

he's not technically undead he's stuck between the two he was never resurrected he just never died but isn't quite alive.

[ChairmanKaga]

he's not technically undead he's stuck between the two he was never resurrected he just never died but isn't quite alive.

I'm not sure they are sure what he is. His quote at the top of this wiki seems to indicate he did "die". I'm definitely bummed this wasn't somehow explored a bit more in SL. Maybe they just want to avoid the can of worms Red Dragonfire as another avenue of resurrection would be.

[therumblings]

I'm thankful we got Bronze healing at least, that's such a cool and unique concept that would have been the biggest missed opportunity for Evokers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not sure they are sure what he is. His quote at the top of this wiki seems to indicate he did "die". I'm definitely bummed this wasn't somehow explored a bit more in SL. Maybe they just want to avoid the can of worms Red Dragonfire as another avenue of resurrection would be.

ah then I'm guessing they retconned it with shadowlands as prior they said he was stuck between life and death.

here I found the quote down in the references.

the idea for Bolvar's appearance could be likened to pirate Raithen of the Diablo novel The Black Road. Burned to death by the Demon Kabraxxis's fire, then resurrected by traces of a spell the demon used to raise skeletons, he walked the line between dead and alive. This is similar to Bolvar: Doomed to die by the Forsaken attack, but held in a living state by the red dragons' fire.

[Hitei]

I'm thankful we got Bronze healing at least, that's such a cool and unique concept that would have been the biggest missed opportunity for Evokers.

I honestly think Bronze healing is super generic and it would have been more interesting as a DPS spec using a mix of sand-attacks and temporal decay, echoes, etc.