Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Kiivar86]

The problem with a location like Argus as an entire expansion vs. somewhere like Pandaria or the Shadowlands is there's no variety on Argus. The entire planet is controlled by the Legion with a small pocket of resistance. You wouldn't be able to have small sidestories meeting and helping out locals like you do in every other expansion because there are no friendly locals, it's just a completely hostile area.

In Pandaria, the Pandaren had a big civilization and we went and helped them out in every zone, while also meeting other friendly races like the Hozen/Jinyu or the grummles, and allies of convenience like the Klaxxi. On Argus it'd just be... the army of the light, no variety in culture. And then on Pandaria, we also had a variety in enemies. The Sha, the Mantid, the Mogu, minor threats like the Yaungol and saurok. In an Argus expansion you'd just have the legion (and maybe some of ethereals) because you can't realistically have other enemies there.

like, people complain about orc fatigue from WoD but an Argus expansion would be 1000x worse

See, I don't agree, I think there's plenty of possibility of variety. Though I do get your point.

I still think Argus could have done for a full expansion pretty easily.

I would argue the issue is that we need something that grounds us to the core story we like. Some might not care at all, and for those a pure Argus expansion might work, but for others the removal of Azeroth from the main story would present a layer of removal from the story that would not be noticeable immediately, but which would slowly build to eventually become annoying to deal with.

In this case there is also the simple issue of all zones looking extremely distinct, which looks good at a glance, but which becomes tiring to look at when you are stuck there for a while.

There has to come a point where we simply can't adventure anywhere else on Azeroth, though. They can only hide so many landmasses before it gets absurd (and it has long passed absurd).

And I don't get that issue you use, either. Distinct looking zones somehow become tiring? As opposed to several zones all looking alike? I feel I'm missing something here, so my apologies.

[Hitei]

I think it would be a neat twist in an infinite cycle of life - living - death. But what role do the other four cosmic powers play then? And what is Elune then, the counterpart to the Eternal Ones or above them? If she’s above, who’s the counterpart for Zovaal, Primus & Co.? It’s too much new lore and I think it would cause the same problems as Shadowlands in that regard. Although the idea sounds nice.

Death's ruling structure was 5 Eternal Ones. Order's ruling structure was 7 Titans. Chaos... I guess true to its nature doesn't even appear to have an intended ruling heirarchy. It's greatest force was the Legion and the Legion was lead by Eredar, who were regular (im)mortals, empowered by Sargeras, who is actually part of Order's pantheon acting on information from the Nathrezim, who are actually a secondary creation of Death's pantheon, so seemingly none of its structure was planned out by the First Ones.

Which makes trying to find comparisons rather difficult. Elune could be the sole ruler, she could be one of many and the one who just happens to be well known on the mortal plane.

Also you're trying to think of the Life and Death cycle as the fundamental part (since it's the one that involves us the most) but it's possible that cycle is just coincidental and not particularly important. We know from the Void side of things and how Naaru work that a similar cycle exists between the Light and Void. Sargeras' existence would also suggest that there might be something similar between Order and Chaos.

Rather than there being one system where everything has a role, it's possible the forces were simply created and shaped with the intent for there to be a balancing act, with no greater purpose than holding each other in check and doing what they do. Perhaps the entire thing was just a literal, rather than metaphorical machine, where the cosmic forces are like a complex reaction being kept stable to power something the First Ones had need of--so there was never a "this is the cycle of life and death and how the other forces support it", instead the individual lives and their cycles were arbitrary products of setting up the balance for the cosmic forces.

[Sondrelk]

See, I don't agree, I think there's plenty of possibility of variety. Though I do get your point.

I still think Argus could have done for a full expansion pretty easily.



There has to come a point where we simply can't adventure anywhere else on Azeroth, though. They can only hide so many landmasses before it gets absurd (and it has long passed absurd).

And I don't get that issue you use, either. Distinct looking zones somehow become tiring? As opposed to several zones all looking alike? I feel I'm missing something here, so my apologies.

All the zones look very distinct and thematic. This means however that I t starts to look increasingly artificial the more you look at it. Humans are after all not living in a blue forest, or gothic castles.
With more grounded zones it's easier to get immersed. You look at the forest and think that this is a forest like the ones you have likely seen already. With zones like Bastion you have to first mentally accept the zone as "reality" before you can get immersed. It's an additional layer of fake you have to accept. You have to get past that it is a game, that it is stylized, and how you control the game in addition to accepting theh zone itself. With more grounded zones you just have to accept the first layers.

From a story perspective you also have to mentally make the connection how this all ties back to Azeroth, which makes it difficult to accept how this is World of Warcraft.


Zones looking less distinct is a definite con for zone variety when it is on Azeroth, but it also makes it easier to go from one zone to the next without having to mentally readjust to the new visuals.


When wow runs out of landmasses the can just revamp. They already recycled outland once into Draenor, so it isn't nearly as impossible a feat as one might think on a smaller scale.

[Hitei]

All the zones look very distinct and thematic. This means however that I t starts to look increasingly artificial the more you look at it. Humans are after all not living in a blue forest, or gothic castles.
With more grounded zones it's easier to get immersed. You look at the forest and think that this is a forest like the ones you have likely seen already. With zones like Bastion you have to first mentally accept the zone as "reality" before you can get immersed. It's an additional layer of fake you have to accept. You have to get past that it is a game, that it is stylized, and how you control the game in addition to accepting theh zone itself. With more grounded zones you just have to accept the first layers.

From a story perspective you also have to mentally make the connection how this all ties back to Azeroth, which makes it difficult to accept how this is World of Warcraft.


Zones looking less distinct is a definite con for zone variety when it is on Azeroth, but it also makes it easier to go from one zone to the next without having to mentally readjust to the new visuals.


When wow runs out of landmasses the can just revamp. They already recycled outland once into Draenor, so it isn't nearly as impossible a feat as one might think on a smaller scale.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is we need a way to keep things grounded and realistic but also varied and fantastic, and I think the answer you're looking for is cave expansion.

More seriously though I think a floating Dragon Isles would handle that balance nicely.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

cave expansion.

Cave expansion? Sign me up.

[Black Rider]

Well duh.
The Shadowlands are where souls end up in, so naturally (heh) the Lifelands/Gardens would be where souls would be made, before they are sent out into the great dark to continue the cycle.

As for the mortal realm, they are already starting to establish it to be some sort of grand cosmic Nexus.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_4

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I would sacrifice a kidney if that meant i could play a Botani.

Absolutely love their design and i've always had a thing for plant people.

I love this kind of Stuff (Expedition Report A37J - Part 4)

[Sondrelk]

It sounds to me like what you're saying is we need a way to keep things grounded and realistic but also varied and fantastic, and I think the answer you're looking for is cave expansion.

More seriously though I think a floating Dragon Isles would handle that balance nicely.

I would say it's more that we shouldn't have an expansion that doesn't have a direct link to Azeroth, looks alien in subtle (or not do subtle) ways, and whose story feels like it came out of the blue with only the vaguest sense that the characters present are involved.

SL failed on all these fronts. It doesn't look familiar enough to make me feel like this takes place in the same world as wow, it is in fact disconnected from Azeroth, with only the shattered sky over Torghast and a smattering of known characters in Oribos to remind us of where we came from, and the story feels like a spin-off more than the next chapter in the ongoing saga.

Dragon isles would at least unquestionably be on Azeroth, with characters we know that are integral to the ongoing struggle. So the dissonance between that expansion and wow as a whole would be far less egregious.

[Nyel]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

Dragon Isles, something where Dragons reside, and it’s not in the air? For a race that’s born to fly and whose individuals are usually massive? (Sure they can transform into other races, but why would dragons do that on their home island?)

[therumblings]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

Dragon Isles, something where Dragons reside, and it’s not in the air? For a race that’s born to fly and whose individuals are usually massive? (Sure they can transform into other races, but why would dragons do that on their home island?)

This. It would make for fun gameplay but also a cool piece of lore that makes sense for Dragons.

[Dracullus]

The problem at this point with Dragon Isles is, if they’re not floating and just are another basic continent in the ocean, I’d be massively disappointed.

You will be dissapointed anyway and this is not a problem. SL gave everybody fill of otherworldly continents, something regular that will feel like Azeroth and, most important, won't be disjointed is needed, at least for me.

[Raetary]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

[therumblings]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

I don't think it's otherwordly, but the verticality and landscape potential is pretty huge, I'd imagine you could have entire zones overlapping each other, with waterfalls and such. The beauty is untapped potential.

[micwini]

9.2 is obviously going to be Zereth Mortis, which will, judging by what we have seen so far, have something akin to Isu Architecture from Assassins Creed. Depending on whether it is the last patch or not, the last boss will either be Anduin or the Jailer, and depending on if its the last patch or not, the Jailer will either try to invade Azeroth and succeed, or we stop him.

If he is the last boss, Gorribal will be used somehow by an Avatar of Azeroth.

I found Ny'alotha architecture ring way closer to Isu architecture than anything I have seen of the first ones so far.

[Dracullus]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

Not alone of course, but I doubt people want stop here. It would just means no shore, no sea, no ships arriving to unknown land, no beaches with Murlocs etc. Imo game should mix themes.

BfA was grounded on first two patches, but sadly they changed theme midway through expac, instead giving Nazjatar & Nyalotha to proper Old God expansion. For BfA it would be better if they stick with war, grounded theme, giving patches let's say complete revamp of Gilneas and Tirisfal that were abandoned zones anyway.

[Raetary]

Not alone of course, but I doubt people want stop here. It would just means no shore, no sea, no ships arriving to unknown land, no beaches with Murlocs etc. Imo game should mix themes.

But...
It doesn't mean any of those things.

For one, not every zone needs to be floating.
They could make 1-2 zones on the ground or partially floating and the rest in the air.

no shore, no sea -- no beaches with Murlocs etc.

Whether a zone has shores or water masses depends entirely on zone design.
Nothing stops the zones from having a big sea/lake/rivers and therefore murloc filled beaches on it.

Hell, if anything floating islands having a rich and flowing water sources is almost a given, as that's the most common depiction of magic floating isles in fantasy.

no ships arriving to unknown land

We would be using airships instead then.
Like literally every other fantasy franchise that has air islands.

This is a non-issue.

[Nyel]

I don't think it's otherwordly, but the verticality and landscape potential is pretty huge, I'd imagine you could have entire zones overlapping each other, with waterfalls and such. The beauty is untapped potential.

It is and it has been done before and it totally worked out. With flying mounts being a requirement. I don’t see why WoW couldn’t achieve the same. And it would totally fit Dragons, be a very cool gameplay gimmick and would turn their horrible approach with flying into something that is mandatory to progress - win win.

[Hitei]

I need someone to explain to me how "island that floats" equals "otherworldy landscape".

It's not because of the floating, but they'd also presumably not just be regular islands. Just based on being flight themed they'd have some fairly otherwordly regions, the bronze area is likely to be like an outdoor caverns of time with different eras intersecting as small pockets and infinite corruption; the blue area would be arcane suffused like Coldarra or Netherstorm, the red area might be some Ashenvale-esque giant magical forest, the black area would likely be some cave-filled volcanic region with rivers and lakes of lava, green would lean into Emerald Dream aesthetic with hazy, misty-covered tangles of primordial wilderness with dream-like terrain like in EN.

But beyond that, being magical floating islands rather than a normal continent means it's much more open to fantastical design and less grounded in reality. Basically all the stuff that made Outland otherwordly is stuff that can also be applied to the Dragon Isles.

[Raetary]

the red area might be some Ashenvale-esque giant magical forest

I always imagined it as Eversong woods but with saturation turned slightly up.

[Hitei]

I always imagined it as Eversong woods but with saturation turned slightly up.

Yeah, something like that.

[Sondrelk]

It is and it has been done before and it totally worked out. With flying mounts being a requirement. I don’t see why WoW couldn’t achieve the same. And it would totally fit Dragons, be a very cool gameplay gimmick and would turn their horrible approach with flying into something that is mandatory to progress - win win.

I really hope Blizzard doesnt make an expansion where flying is required without also revamping flying. There currently is no mechanic inherent to flying that is in any way conducive to gameplay, and mixing current flying with open world just leads to the open world being made pointless.
The teleportation networks shown in SL would be mostly meaningless, same with most of the treasures. The very idea of zones like Bastion for instance is heavily built around the concept that you explore it from the ground. The fact that it is floating and the inhabitants can fly is the very reason the zone works so well when you yourself cannot, it gives the developers organic reasons to have treasures out of reach requiring clever use of mechanics to find.

The game is being held back by the current version of flying, and unless the very mechanics of it changes to add some inherent weaknesses and strengths compared to other modes of transportation then adding flying will only ever diminish the open world.