What does Survival need to be viable?

[Huntsmang]

In pvp it is definately viable.

In pve is where you find the a problem and in Dungeons they are extremely undesirable.

In dungeons you would bring Mdps to justify being close up in danger by bringing utility.

WW Monks bring: Leg Sweep(aoe stun) + Ring of Peace(aoe utility) + Mystic Touch
Havoc DH brings: Chaos Nova(aoe stun) + Fel eruption(longer single target stun) + Darkness(group defensive utility) + Chaos Brand

Survival Hunters bring: Intimidation(single target stun)+ Binding shot(aoe root with minimal visual) + BL/Hero(useless if there is already one of the other 8 specs with it is present)

As for Survival hunter defensives you have turtle to save you from death every 3 min. Comparing that the tankieness of UNH DK and the defensive utilites of a Rogue is laughable.


Why did i make this post?

Ion Hazzikostas said on the recent interview that the classes are balanced pretty well and that the only people who notice any meta are the extremely few top of high end players which is BS!


EDIT: So were all basicly on the same page, we don't mind Survival being reverted to melee, but it lacks melee utility in the form of either an aoe stun, passive binding shot, super aoe slow(70% tar trap), aoe silence, ap/stam buff, magic damage debuff/melee damage debuff or anything of that kind. It also lacks an ability to damage inside it's damage reduction ability even if it's weakened like Ret pallys in Devine Shield.

Wonderful ideas btw guys <3

[Saltysquidoon]

Specs don't just compete with other classes they compete within their class. This is lethal to survival, unless it is significantly stronger than both MM or BM all the utility on earth won't help it.

Feral and enhancement are in the same boat. In ny'alotha they were roughly equal to or exceeded balance and ele in terms of performance but they were played orders of magnitude less.
The simple fact is a melee spec competing with a ranged spec of the same class needs to be better in every single conceivable way and even then it's going to depend on your raid/m+ team's set up if it's just easier for you to switch off to ranged.

[Huntsmang]

Thank you for pointing that out Mr. Saltyquidoon!

Survival hunter going upclose in Pve doesn't get any tools to deal with it's new enviroment. You might aswell equip a bow and fire from afar where you don't have to worrying about melee mechanics after you respecced lmao.

To rub salt on the wound, they don't even have the inherent 3% parry that all mele specs get for free!

[enigma77]

It needs to be ranged again.

[Gestopft]

It needs to be bring something that ranged hunters don't (other than a shorter interrupt), or it won't be desirable. I think maybe Tar Trap should be an AoE stun or AoE silence for SV, since it doesn't need all of the slows that it currently has, at least in PvE.

I'd also like to see Wildfire Infusion baseline, and maybe a talent that lets KC cleave; something to speed up the rotation in AoE. Or maybe a short CD AoE burst, like the artifact ability...only good this time.

And finally, a little bit more personal defensive utility for being in melee range.

[Logwyn]

Use abilities with two two-handed weapons. Then I'd play it.

It might could be a tanking spec too. You use the pet to block or absorb the damage somehow.

[Eapoe]

Increase AoE damage.
Remove SS ability and have it applied on use of RS/MB and Carve.
Remove WFB and replace with Explosive Trap. Increase damage of ET to levels of other AoE, such as Eyebeam on DH. Keep ET out of ST by making it do increased damage when 2+ targets are affected.
Reduce GCD to 1 second like all other melee if that hasn’t happened yet.
Give SV the 3% parry that all melee get.
Would like a unique buff, but hard to justify that as the rdps counterparts would complain. Maybe something small like what Druids used to have with a movement speed increase thru giving back Aspect of the Pack (minus the daze) on a small CD.
More streamlined spec. For example, make MB a talent but instead of stacking just have it grant a small increase to damage of all abilities to the target when used. This would allow the rotation to proceed as normal without having to interrupt the flow by going into a MB spamfest.

[aceperson]

either a revert or a completely new redesign. the spec is mostly just a bunch of button mashing with no real synergy.

examples:
raptor strike doesn't affect anything without azerite traits or talents
kill command doesn't have synergy beyond a 25% increased proc chance when your cd is used. only one kc talent gives synergy but you don't take it because you give up mongoose bite
wildfire bomb has almost no synergy without using a talent (carve/butchery is the only exception)
serpent sting has no synergy without azerite traits or a talent
mongoose bite has no synergy without using the wildfire bomb talent


this spec was not designed to perform fluidly without the use of outside power gains like azerite and artifacts.

[koontakent]

Increase AoE damage.
Remove SS ability and have it applied on use of RS/MB and Carve.
Remove WFB and replace with Explosive Trap. Increase damage of ET to levels of other AoE, such as Eyebeam on DH. Keep ET out of ST by making it do increased damage when 2+ targets are affected.
Reduce GCD to 1 second like all other melee if that hasn’t happened yet.
Give SV the 3% parry that all melee get.
Would like a unique buff, but hard to justify that as the rdps counterparts would complain. Maybe something small like what Druids used to have with a movement speed increase thru giving back Aspect of the Pack (minus the daze) on a small CD.
More streamlined spec. For example, make MB a talent but instead of stacking just have it grant a small increase to damage of all abilities to the target when used. This would allow the rotation to proceed as normal without having to interrupt the flow by going into a MB spamfest.

Good lord we don't need to get rid of explosive trap, then we'd just lose a whole single target and AoE ability, wildfire bomb is basically explosive trap that you throw, the ability is one of the best abilities in the kit.
I'm also pretty sure only a few classes have the 1 second GCD, one of them being rogues.

Overall currently survival is pretty well built - the issue is that's currently, soon we will lose our Azerite traits (120 energy, decreased CD on WFB being the big 2) and essences (lucid minor is massive for survival)

But to the OP overall the spec is pretty nice, it's in a very good shape currently - however the drawback is currently is with all the azerite goodies and essences (luciod minor

We got no updates in the prepatch really (3 minor changes to talents + kill shot, HM and tranq shot) and we also face the same issue that demon hunters face as we got the redesign in time when we have a lot of borrowed power, so the toolkit was built around getting borrowed power

Survival needs a few things to get up to par and made to feel fluid

The first would be some added passives, mainly looking at a passive to steady out focus regeneration to reduce our dependency on haste.

We also need some work done on talents to create more options, the easy way would be to make goose bite baseline and rework the 45 talents.

I'd also like carve to be looked at, it's a pretty bad feeling ability that only really get used to reduce WFBs cd.

I wouldnt mind some added raid functionality too, but I don't exactly know what they could give us

[Eapoe]

Good lord we don't need to get rid of explosive trap, then we'd just lose a whole single target and AoE ability, wildfire bomb is basically explosive trap that you throw, the ability is one of the best abilities in the kit.
I'm also pretty sure only a few classes have the 1 second GCD, one of them being rogues.

Overall currently survival is pretty well built - the issue is that's currently, soon we will lose our Azerite traits (120 energy, decreased CD on WFB being the big 2) and essences (lucid minor is massive for survival)

But to the OP overall the spec is pretty nice, it's in a very good shape currently - however the drawback is currently is with all the azerite goodies and essences (luciod minor

We got no updates in the prepatch really (3 minor changes to talents + kill shot, HM and tranq shot) and we also face the same issue that demon hunters face as we got the redesign in time when we have a lot of borrowed power, so the toolkit was built around getting borrowed power

Survival needs a few things to get up to par and made to feel fluid

The first would be some added passives, mainly looking at a passive to steady out focus regeneration to reduce our dependency on haste.

We also need some work done on talents to create more options, the easy way would be to make goose bite baseline and rework the 45 talents.

I'd also like carve to be looked at, it's a pretty bad feeling ability that only really get used to reduce WFBs cd.

I wouldnt mind some added raid functionality too, but I don't exactly know what they could give us

Part of the issue is we have too many ST/AoE abilities that all are low on power. Abilities shouldn’t be both ST and AoE unless they are either powerful enough to be both, which WFB is not, or fills some kind of utility (such as increase Focus Regen), which WFB doesn’t do. The reason I stated ET is because part of SVs description was that as being a master of traps. Replacing WFB with ET still fills the same role as an ability you throw, and can even be used ST without the damage modified I mentioned, that brings back some of the SV identity and description.
SV is really not built that well. It’s a fun spec, but it’s tuning is shit, and even the people that play it and enjoy playing it discuss its downfalls of bad tuning and synergy issues. Even with current Azerite and essences it is still underperforming compared to other dps specs.
The fact you interrupt your entire gameplay to enter a spamfest based on a talent further supports fluidity issues.
Also, taking SS and making it a passive apply off of your other spenders, such as Carve for additional AoE and RS/MB for ST, helps with some focus regen because you don’t need to use it for that ability anymore.
It’s also weird that you state that the spec is pretty good overall with the existence of Azerite and Essences, but then list some big issues with it, none of which are tied to Azerite or Essences.

[LordVargK]

either a revert or a completely new redesign. the spec is mostly just a bunch of button mashing with no real synergy.

examples:
raptor strike doesn't affect anything without azerite traits or talents
kill command doesn't have synergy beyond a 25% increased proc chance when your cd is used. only one kc talent gives synergy but you don't take it because you give up mongoose bite
wildfire bomb has almost no synergy without using a talent (carve/butchery is the only exception)
serpent sting has no synergy without azerite traits or a talent
mongoose bite has no synergy without using the wildfire bomb talent


this spec was not designed to perform fluidly without the use of outside power gains like azerite and artifacts.

But the same is true for all hunter specs. And for rogue and DH and WW. Basically for all classes that simple spend resources and the others are not synergistic as well, they just build up resources through their abilities.
Those specs are the norm.
Which specs are really synergistic in a way you describe?

[Razion]

All of these would very likely be excessive, but just some ideas anyway:

Maybe using Flare on a Tar Trap could make a silence area like Solar Beam?
Maybe Aspect of the Eagle could have a greatly reduced CD so it could regularly alternate between melee and ranged more often?
Maybe they could have Survival of the Fittest and the Ferocity Leech at the same time?
Maybe reduced CD and longer lasting Misdirect?
Maybe more frequent but shorter Aspect of the Cheetahs so they can run around more?
Maybe you could Harpoon to a place instead of requiring a target so they have more free-form mobility?
Maybe Intimidation could also interrupt the target as well as stunning them?
Maybe Aspect of the Turtle could have reflection properties - either to melee or spells, and removing existing conditions (maybe even reversing them to enemies)
Maybe they could have two charges of Tar Trap and Freezing Trap - and able to have multiple copies out at once?

[Tyranastus]

I'm resisting the urge to simply say "a reversion to ranged Survival".

I've been unsubbed for well over a year, and haven't actually maintained any kind of consistent sub since WoD; I simply don't agree with and won't support Blizzard for taking away the spec that I played exclusively from WotLK to end of WoD (And yes, I gave melee survival a solid chance in Legion). Since I have been gone so long, I've had the time and chance to look at things objectively and without bias and unfortunately, I honestly have to say that the only way for Blizzard to change Survival to be played as much as the other two hunters specs really is to revert it to ranged. I'll explain why-

When looking at class representation, you can't simply compare specs to their fellows within the class unless each role within the class is the same. One would not compare Blood and Unholy and try to explain or fix representation if one or the other was lacking, and herein lies the problem with melee Survival. Survival is competing against other hunter specs for a spot in a raid while also competing against all other melee specs for their spot in the raid group. It comes down to multiple factors-
Role: While Survival does not share the same role as the two ranged specs in the Hunter class, the fact that it is sharing the class is a huge hindrance against Survival viability and desirability as multiple instances of the same class in a raid can result in reduced utility.
Class Viability: Survival, despite not sharing the same role as MM or BM, still needs to be competitive or exceed the DPS capability of other melee specs AND ranged Hunter specs in order to be considered for a raid group.
Utility: Survival needs equal or better utility than other melee AND ranged hunter specs in order to be considered for a raid group.
Raid Composition: Raids, from what I can tell, tend to include a maximum of 5 (+/-) melee spots in their raid makeup. Survival needs to perform their role while also providing equal utility to the group equal to or better than alternative classes/specs AND ranged Hunter specs, without hindering the raid simply by being a melee spec in a class that allows ranged specs.

Even if Survival was to provide massively better DPS than MM or BM, it's not going to receive a raid spot instead of the two ranged Hunter specs, it is simply going to receive a raid spot in lieu of another melee spec.
Even if Survival was given raid utility that was desirable and that the ranged Hunter specs did not receive, it STILL would simply be given a raid spot instead of another melee spec.
Even if Survival outperformed all other melee DPS specs and provided exclusive, desirable raid utility AND the two ranged hunter specs were so underperforming that they were rejected from raid groups by default, Survival STILL would not receive a raid spot in lieu of either of the ranged hunter specs, because it's purpose is to fill a melee raid spot.

If Survival was tuned so that it outperformed other melee DPS specs to such a degree that the loss of utility was offset by the output disparity, I could see Survival being taken to raids more.
Transversely, if Survival was given utility that was exclusive to the spec and most heavily desired for raid competition, they would be taken to raids more but at the expense of other melee specs.
If Marksmanship and Beast Mastery were converted to melee, Survival may have a chance at being taken to raids more than the other Hunter specs, but that does not mean that their desirability would increase; it simply means that other ranged specs would fill the void left by the ranged Hunter specs and melee positions in raid groups would be even more difficult for Survival to be considered for.

Please don't take this as me simply being a RSV fanboy who hates MSV because "my hurt feelings", I am simply considering Survival's position as a non-player. Even if Blizzard were to come out and say that they were reverting Survival to the ranged spec it used to be, I would be unhappy with the change as it is putting players in the same position that I was 4-ish years ago when my preferred spec was changed so fundamentally that I lost enjoyment in the game.

[Huntsmang]

All of these would very likely be excessive, but just some ideas anyway:

Maybe using Flare on a Tar Trap could make a silence area like Solar Beam? a short aoe silence? i like that!
Maybe Aspect of the Eagle could have a greatly reduced CD so it could regularly alternate between melee and ranged more often? that direction would be very risky!
Maybe they could have Survival of the Fittest and the Ferocity Leech at the same time? Exactly enough to survive the melee mechanics without brushing them off
Maybe reduced CD and longer lasting Misdirect? i dont think it's needed, md is strong enough
Maybe more frequent but shorter Aspect of the Cheetahs so they can run around more? i think making binding shot or poshaste passive would do the same trick of increasing mobility without sacrificing only aoe cc of the spec.
Maybe you could Harpoon to a place instead of requiring a target so they have more free-form mobility?
Maybe Intimidation could also interrupt the target as well as stunning them?
Maybe Aspect of the Turtle could have reflection properties - either to melee or spells, and removing existing conditions (maybe even reversing them to enemies) that may be a bit too strong, in that case it would need a much longer cd
Maybe they could have two charges of Tar Trap and Freezing Trap - and able to have multiple copies out at once? fun but not needed.

Thanks for the wonderful contribution i've listen a comment on each idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Specs don't just compete with other classes they compete within their class. This is lethal to survival, unless it is significantly stronger than both MM or BM all the utility on earth won't help it.

Feral and enhancement are in the same boat. In ny'alotha they were roughly equal to or exceeded balance and ele in terms of performance but they were played orders of magnitude less.
The simple fact is a melee spec competing with a ranged spec of the same class needs to be better in every single conceivable way and even then it's going to depend on your raid/m+ team's set up if it's just easier for you to switch off to ranged.

Also Enhancement and Feral bring enough utility just a bit less than other specs, however they get less picked because the range counterpart has the same utility and further range.

Feral has: aoe utility in massgrip, ursols vortex(which can be had simutaniously with bash) opener and combo point stuns. Combat ress and off heals.

Enhancement has: Aoe stun, aoe slow with potention for aoe root, BL/Hero, self ress, windfury and off heals.

Survial: Aoe root, single target stun, and Bl.

So people that are saying Feral and Enhancement are just as bad are speaking BS!

If feral and enhancement beat their range counterpart in dps then you will find a bunch of player swiching, meaning they don't find it that useless. However you'll need a huge dps difference in hunter specs for anyone to seriously pick SV over the 2 others. Because of utility and sustainability.

[aceperson]

But the same is true for all hunter specs. And for rogue and DH and WW. Basically for all classes that simple spend resources and the others are not synergistic as well, they just build up resources through their abilities.
Those specs are the norm.
Which specs are really synergistic in a way you describe?

barbed shot gives the pet attack speed which has synergy with multishot giving beast cleave AND reduces bestial wraths cd which means more burst damage. cobra shot reduces kill commands cd so you get more damage out. thats without azerite or talents and thats tons more synergy within the spec. then you have animal companion that has synergy with everything listed, scent of blood that makes using bestial wrath generate more focus AND reduce the cd of bestial wrath, owtp that increases the chance to generate more focus and get bestial wrath faster, thrill of the hunt causing barbed shot an increased chance to get reset procs.

just because a spec is simple in design does not make it unsynergetic. the opposite is true for 'complex' specs.

as clunky as i find mm, it still has more synergy and a better flow. aimed shot makes 1 or 2 arcane shots and/or multishots free (if blizz ever actually fix this passive....) and multishot gives cleave to rapid fire and aimed shot. for talents, steady focus lowers the gcd, cast times, and your cooldowns, streamline has synergy with trick shots, lethal shots can reduce the cd of rapid fire for more damage and focus gen, dead eye causes aimed shots cd to recharge faster, double tap can synergize with rapid fire for burst focus gen or just use it with aimed shot for burst damage, and calling the shots causes your arcane and multishots reduce the cd of your main cd which your main cd reduces the cast time and recharge of aimed shot which causes a repeating cycle for faster gameplay.

complexity and simplicity aren't inherently better than one another. the design is what makes each side have their strengths.

using dh as an example, while dh doesn't have ANY base synergy within its own spec, the talents were made in such a way to change how the spec performs by picking different synergies. blind fury grants fury, demonic appetite gives a chance to spawn soul fragments which heals you and gives you fury, felblade has a reset chance with demon's bite which generates fury, soul rending gives more leech while using meta, cycle of hatred reduces eye beams cd, demonic causes eye beam to put you in meta which gives you synergy with blind fury and soul rending, and momentum causes fel rush to increase your damage and vengeful retreat to give fury if you hit an enemy.

what is simple to the eye can be quite complex once laid out on paper. that's a testament to how well designed dh is. it isn't overly built and yet it has such a smooth gameplay that can be altered by choosing different talents.