Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Bodakane]

It's a compromise. That's debatable. Compromise happens.

Poor analogy. You want to bring on the criticism machine before the race has really even started.

This is what I've been trying to get through to you for years now......

The dems walked in with the compromise, asking for $1600 one time payment and a $15 minimum wage hike. They should have walked in with $500 monthly stimulus for 6 months and a $20 minimum wage hike. But since they follow the same weak and bullshit strategy they always do, we are getting a meager $1600 one time payment and nothing else.

And you think this is a victory.

[Adam Jensen]

Duh, we create fusion reactors to produce the energy. And harness the excess from the reactions. I still want to know how we’re going to make protons and electrons out of nothing though.

It's simple.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

So all you need to create protons and electrons is a Big Bang.

[beanman12345]

Latest Biden poll 61% approval across the nation
Latest Trump poll 55% at Trump cult gathering CPAC

And republicans so dumb they're gonna run him again.

[cubby]

This is what I've been trying to get through to you for years now......

The dems walked in with the compromise, asking for $1600 one time payment and a $15 minimum wage hike. They should have walked in with $500 monthly stimulus for 6 months and a $20 minimum wage hike. But since they follow the same weak and bullshit strategy they always do, we are getting a meager $1600 one time payment and nothing else.

And you think this is a victory.

No, you really haven't. You think you have, and we've certainly discussed it, but your take on it isn't entirely correct at the core.

The Dems walked in with some good numbers, knowing they would lose some items. I agree they perhaps should have gone for more - but you can ALWAYS argue that - so that criticism is always possible, which means it's irrelevant, to a point.

It is. One of many to come. You need to stop assuming the fight is over before it even starts.

Edit: really, when you think about it, the minimum wage hike isn't necessary for COVID relief. I want it to happen, and it should, and it's far overdue - but even if it passed tomorrow it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest.

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Latest Biden poll 61% approval across the nation
Latest Trump poll 55% at Trump cult gathering CPAC

And republicans so dumb they're gonna run him again.

Love it. I hope they do run him. Should be interesting.

[Bodakane]

No, you really haven't. You think you have, and we've certainly discussed it, but your take on it isn't entirely correct at the core.

The Dems walked in with some good numbers, knowing they would lose some items. I agree they perhaps should have gone for more - but you can ALWAYS argue that - so that criticism is always possible, which means it's irrelevant, to a point.

It is. One of many to come. You need to stop assuming the fight is over before it even starts.

Edit: really, when you think about it, the minimum wage hike isn't necessary for COVID relief. I want it to happen, and it should, and it's far overdue - but even if it passed tomorrow it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest.

That's my point, no matter how meager the scraps we are given, even as they get smaller and smaller, you still claim victory and that everything is working according to plan and call it compromise.

You are literally a living microcosm of the problem with the Dems.

Furthermore, if you don't think a one time $1600 payment after 500K thousand people are dead and untold businesses have been destroyed is the same as throwing a glass of water on a building fire, then you don't understand analogies.

[Themius]

No, you really haven't. You think you have, and we've certainly discussed it, but your take on it isn't entirely correct at the core.

The Dems walked in with some good numbers, knowing they would lose some items. I agree they perhaps should have gone for more - but you can ALWAYS argue that - so that criticism is always possible, which means it's irrelevant, to a point.

It is. One of many to come. You need to stop assuming the fight is over before it even starts.

Edit: really, when you think about it, the minimum wage hike isn't necessary for COVID relief. I want it to happen, and it should, and it's far overdue - but even if it passed tomorrow it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest.

- - - Updated - - -



Love it. I hope they do run him. Should be interesting.

the thing that destroyed the economy and threw millions of people into hard to get out of debt doesn't require a minimum wage hike? I mean...covid happened... rich got rich, poor got poorer, and now have tremendous debt, and... a way to fix that long term surely is minimum wage hike.

I mean let's go back to 2008 people in the bottom marjotiy did not recover would higher wages have helped that? why yes it would... the covid package isn't just about covid is it? It's about covid and economic relief.

[cubby]

That's my point, no matter how meager the scraps we are given, even as they get smaller and smaller, you still claim victory and that everything is working according to plan and call it compromise.

You are literally a living microcosm of the problem with the Dems.

Furthermore, if you don't think a one time $1600 payment after 500K thousand people are dead and untold businesses have been destroyed is the same as throwing a glass of water on a building fire, then you don't understand analogies.

Because the bill as it stands now is victory. Compromise happens and the Democrats are in a position now where we can't go whole hog - we need a stronger majority before that can happen. You calling it meager scraps is either willfully disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

The bill sucks compared to other countries, but that is a systematic issue with our country overall, not just with the COVID response. Your poor analogies are irrelevant to that much larger issue.

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the thing that destroyed the economy and threw millions of people into hard to get out of debt doesn't require a minimum wage hike? I mean...covid happened... rich got rich, poor got poorer, and now have tremendous debt, and... a way to fix that long term surely is minimum wage hike.

I mean let's go back to 2008 people in the bottom marjotiy did not recover would higher wages have helped that? why yes it would... the covid package isn't just about covid is it? It's about covid and economic relief.

No, it doesn't - but the country as a whole does. All I'm saying is that a minimum wage hike isn't a necessary fix to the immediate problems of what COVID has done to the country - short term. We absolutely need it, but even if it passed right now, it wouldn't be implemented until 2022 at the earliest. Whereas the COVID relief bill has moneys for millions of people and businesses and local governments that will help immediately.

I agree with your point overall, of course. We are long due for a major minimum wage hike - what were the stats again? It should be at $24/hr if it stayed with inflation or CEO pay increases.

[Edge-]

Furthermore, if you don't think a one time $1600 payment after 500K thousand people are dead and untold businesses have been destroyed is the same as throwing a glass of water on a building fire, then you don't understand analogies.

That's why there's additional unemployment funding (which is arguably more important since folks that have lost jobs NEED the unemployment more than the stimulus check), tons more PPP funding for small businesses (which hopefully doesn't get exploited again), and state/local funding for governments who provide a lot of similar services to small businesses and people under/un-employed.

Don't get me wrong, I think Democrats were stupid as shit for starting with the $1,400 check right outta the gate. But that's their problem, they're always inclined to try to work in good faith with a party that has shown no desire to operate in anything but bad faith.

We can argue over Democrats being bad at politics, they kinda are, and how they can unfuck themselves, but the reality is that they're hardly the main problem. The main problem is the party that voted, in its entirety, against the bill in the House. The party that's justifying rejecting any minimum wage increase because they were paid shit when they were kids 60 years ago and exploited to hell and that makes continuing to pay sub-living wages and exploit workers JUST FINE.

People go after Manchin/Sinema like they're literally holding all this up on their own and like...there are 50 other Senators that are also holding it up. Don't get me wrong, fuck Manchin/Sinema, but they're doing what their constituents in their states elected them to do. I hold the 50 Republicans, who can't even find a single one of the "not a Trump cultist" members to vote for it, far more responsible.

Especially with the, "OH BUT IF DEMS DON'T PASS THIS REPUBLICANS WILL RETAKE THE HOUSE/SENATE!" nonsense like...does anyone actually think Republicans will do anything other than repeat the disasterous 2016 Congress if they're re-elected? Does anyone think they'll spend time on anything but ramming through judicial nominees and desperately trying to repeal the ACA? That their one and only legislative "accomplishment" was a tax cut that, unique amongst tax cuts, is nearly universally unpopular?

Democrats need to go harder on making it painfully clear that it's not Manchin or Sinema that's the problem, but the entirety of the Republican Congress.

[cubby]

With regards to individual checks if we want to catch up to other nations we should be sending out around $20000 in back payments for the time the GOP blocked anything.

Did you see the economist that pointed out the GOP tax break for the rich, if repealed, would pay for $2k/month checks for everyone in the United States for something like 8 months?

We might all be disagreeing on points of policy or intentions or strategy, but we can all agree that the GOP fucking sucks.

[Breccia]

Yep, just like with marijuana legalization efforts the states are leading the way.

Of course, that's an interesting issue, in that it works the other way. Specifically, that the federal government still says it's illegal. (That's still true, right?) The minimum wage issue is much easier for states to address.

I am okay with states leading the way on both. Especially with the afore-discussed gridlock despite Dems holding "all the power".

[cubby]

That's why there's additional unemployment funding (which is arguably more important since folks that have lost jobs NEED the unemployment more than the stimulus check), tons more PPP funding for small businesses (which hopefully doesn't get exploited again), and state/local funding for governments who provide a lot of similar services to small businesses and people under/un-employed.

Don't get me wrong, I think Democrats were stupid as shit for starting with the $1,400 check right outta the gate. But that's their problem, they're always inclined to try to work in good faith with a party that has shown no desire to operate in anything but bad faith.

We can argue over Democrats being bad at politics, they kinda are, and how they can unfuck themselves, but the reality is that they're hardly the main problem. The main problem is the party that voted, in its entirety, against the bill in the House. The party that's justifying rejecting any minimum wage increase because they were paid shit when they were kids 60 years ago and exploited to hell and that makes continuing to pay sub-living wages and exploit workers JUST FINE.

People go after Manchin/Sinema like they're literally holding all this up on their own and like...there are 50 other Senators that are also holding it up. Don't get me wrong, fuck Manchin/Sinema, but they're doing what their constituents in their states elected them to do. I hold the 50 Republicans, who can't even find a single one of the "not a Trump cultist" members to vote for it, far more responsible.

Especially with the, "OH BUT IF DEMS DON'T PASS THIS REPUBLICANS WILL RETAKE THE HOUSE/SENATE!" nonsense like...does anyone actually think Republicans will do anything other than repeat the disasterous 2016 Congress if they're re-elected? Does anyone think they'll spend time on anything but ramming through judicial nominees and desperately trying to repeal the ACA? That their one and only legislative "accomplishment" was a tax cut that, unique amongst tax cuts, is nearly universally unpopular?

Democrats need to go harder on making it painfully clear that it's not Manchin or Sinema that's the problem, but the entirety of the Republican Congress.

Well put - I completely agree.

This is all on the GOP right now, their lack of any moral compass and shitting on their constituents while lying to them is why our country is suffering so much. The Dems have their problems, but at least they are fighting the good fight.

[Edge-]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1809531.html

"The person that I started talking to ... that had initially got me into QAnon, he was like, 'You know, Joe Biden's not even real’," she said. "That's why he's wearing a mask all the time, because the fake face that he's wearing, the mouth doesn't move correctly when he talks. Yeah, so they really believe that Joe Biden is not even Joe Biden."

Charlotte Rozich, another former believer, said a common belief in QAnon circles was that Mr Biden is not truly the president. They claim that Mr Biden is acting as president from a movie-set version of the White House and is being controlled by the "deep state."

Man, this is the worst episode of West Wing/VEEP/whatever other White House shows you want to reference.

Though like, if Biden is a robot then holy shit that's some super advanced robotics both on the hardware and software front. I wonder if they think his dogs are robots, too. And his wife.

[Bodakane]

Because the bill as it stands now is victory. Compromise happens and the Democrats are in a position now where we can't go whole hog - we need a stronger majority before that can happen. You calling it meager scraps is either willfully disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

The bill sucks compared to other countries, but that is a systematic issue with our country overall, not just with the COVID response. Your poor analogies are irrelevant to that much larger issue.

I'm telling you it is not a victory because it so much less and late than it is needed and wanted and your response is...its a victory because its a victory.

Please explain how $1400 (i've been incorrectly calling it $1600) after a year of destruction is not meager. It is nothing and does no real help at all. Its like giving a homeless person $5 and thinking their problems are solved. Cool, they can get a little food for one day....big fucking deal.

Yes, I know its a systematic issue with the country. I'm saying what needs to be done to fix it and you're telling me, nope keep playing by the same rules that let the systematic problem we are complaining about, exist.

[Edge-]

I'm telling you it is not a victory because it so much less and late than it is needed and wanted and your response is...its a victory because its a victory.

That it's likely happening at all is a sad, depressing, pathetic victory. Because it wasn't possible without Democrats narrowly taking back the Senate.

Please explain how $1400 (i've been incorrectly calling it $1600) after a year of destruction is not meager.

It absolutely is. And sadly, it's still better than anything Republicans offered after the first package.

It is nothing and does no real help at all. Its like giving a homeless person $5 and thinking their problems are solved. Cool, they can get a little food for one day....big fucking deal.

If you listen to Democrats talk about it, including Biden, they are fully aware that the one-time payment won't fix everything. But it will help, which is the point.

Yes, I know its a systematic issue with the country. I'm saying what needs to be done to fix it and you're telling me, nope keep playing by the same rules that let the systematic problem we are complaining about, exist.

Because until there are two functional political parties, or the single mostly functional political party can gain supermajorities, nothing will change. We may not LIKE that, but it's a depressing reality. As long as Republicans in Republican states keep sending Republicans who don't want to govern to DC, this problem will remain.

And none of us are happy about it, but a lot of us know the score and will call a win, even a depressing win, a win when we see it. And depressingly, getting anything passed is a win.

[Endus]

The idea is we can create elements from scratch, so... yeah. And that resources are infinite, we just create more. The resource to create more basic elements is protons, electrons, and neutrons. To create those you need things like quarks and gluons. Keep going down, at some point you have to create a new particle from nothing for the supposition to be true. It’s fucking hilarious.

The difficulty is that, while resources are clearly finite, we're also not in a closed system. Solar energy is a constant contribution of energy and matter. We could theoretically source material from extraterrestrial sites (meaning asteroids and the like, not aliens, "extra-terrestrial" means "outside of the Earth").

But that doesn't make resources infinite. Just that we'd need to expand boundaries of extraction to access them.

And, lest it be thought I'm agreeing with PC2 here, that's a barrier that's largely not feasible to surmount. There's technological leaps required, and until we achieve such leaps, we can't plan for them. There's no way to predict when, or even if, such leaps will occur. I think asteroid mining is achievable in the moderate future; we can already land systems onto moving objects, as we've done with comets, so it's a matter of attaching thrusters, and nudging the rock out of its current orbit and then nudging it into a geostationary position where it can be exploited near enough to the Earth to be useful. That would reduce the cost of building in orbit, but lifting resources up out of gravity wells is a bitch, cost-wise. That's why I think asteroid mining is a given, actually; that's the next big step to actually push us into space in a big way; removing the cost of lifting mass into orbit from Earth's surface. But places like Mars? Those planetary resources mostly make Mars an attractive place to build because it has those resources at hand, not because we can lift them and move them anywhere else.

Fixing that cost is a question we have some wild hypotheticals for and basically no real, engineerable solutions. Maybe a space elevator, if we can power the damned thing? But that doesn't reduce the energy cost, it just means we can take our time about it rather than having to boost into orbit in one quick burst. Not to mention the resource cost of building the damned thing.

[Bodakane]

That's why there's additional unemployment funding (which is arguably more important since folks that have lost jobs NEED the unemployment more than the stimulus check), tons more PPP funding for small businesses (which hopefully doesn't get exploited again), and state/local funding for governments who provide a lot of similar services to small businesses and people under/un-employed.

Don't get me wrong, I think Democrats were stupid as shit for starting with the $1,400 check right outta the gate. But that's their problem, they're always inclined to try to work in good faith with a party that has shown no desire to operate in anything but bad faith.

We can argue over Democrats being bad at politics, they kinda are, and how they can unfuck themselves, but the reality is that they're hardly the main problem. The main problem is the party that voted, in its entirety, against the bill in the House. The party that's justifying rejecting any minimum wage increase because they were paid shit when they were kids 60 years ago and exploited to hell and that makes continuing to pay sub-living wages and exploit workers JUST FINE.

People go after Manchin/Sinema like they're literally holding all this up on their own and like...there are 50 other Senators that are also holding it up. Don't get me wrong, fuck Manchin/Sinema, but they're doing what their constituents in their states elected them to do. I hold the 50 Republicans, who can't even find a single one of the "not a Trump cultist" members to vote for it, far more responsible.

Especially with the, "OH BUT IF DEMS DON'T PASS THIS REPUBLICANS WILL RETAKE THE HOUSE/SENATE!" nonsense like...does anyone actually think Republicans will do anything other than repeat the disasterous 2016 Congress if they're re-elected? Does anyone think they'll spend time on anything but ramming through judicial nominees and desperately trying to repeal the ACA? That their one and only legislative "accomplishment" was a tax cut that, unique amongst tax cuts, is nearly universally unpopular?

Democrats need to go harder on making it painfully clear that it's not Manchin or Sinema that's the problem, but the entirety of the Republican Congress.

I mean....no.

Yes the repubs are awful and evil. But the Dems are allowing them to be by doing precisely what you mentioned earlier, by keep coming to the table thinking the repubs are good faith.

Its like you see it, acknowledge it, then just stop short of saying that's the problem. It's bizarre.

Look at like this, which is more possible....

- Convincing racist bigots who believe in zero facts, to stop being racist bigots and start listening to facts

or

- Getting Dems to understand their strategy isn't working, because even though they supposedly have the reigns in DC, they cannot get a meager stimulus and outdated minimum wage passed when the whole country wants during a pandemic that killed 500k people and is destroying the economy.

[Edge-]

Its like you see it, acknowledge it, then just stop short of saying that's the problem. It's bizarre.

That's not the problem, that's a problem. Which I pointed out.

The problem is that you only have one functional political party capable of governance in DC. The problem is that Republicans would reject literally anything proposed by the Democrats unless it was a Republican wish-list. The problem is that they're not even willing to negotiate in good faith.

- Convincing racist bigots who believe in zero facts, to stop being racist bigots and start listening to facts

Unrelated problem to passing the stimulus.

- Getting Dems to understand their strategy isn't working, because even though they supposedly have the reigns in DC, they cannot get a meager stimulus and outdated minimum wage passed when the whole country wants during a pandemic that killed 500k people and is destroying the economy.

Because, as I and others pointed out in November, Democratic control is by a razor thin margin and a few members of the House and especially Senate can derail a bill. Because the Democrats have a far larger tent and have to deal with more ideological diversity than Republicans (see your progressive Squad members/Sanders/Cori Bush etc. and folks like Manchin/Sinema/Feinstein).

It's hardly as simple of a situation as you present it to be, even though we all wish it was just that simple.

[Benggaul]

Yes the repubs are awful and evil. But the Dems are allowing them to be by doing precisely what you mentioned earlier, by keep coming to the table thinking the repubs are good faith.

To be fair, I don't think they're "coming to the table" hoping to convince the GOP to change their minds. To me it has seemed largely symbolic since Biden began his term so they can say "See? We tried to talk with them about it but they didn't want to help you, so we're going to go ahead with our plan". Like when Biden met with those GOP members ahead of the stimulus vote to talk about "compromise" but didn't change a damned thing after the meeting and told Senate Dems to move forward with their original plan.

Don't get me wrong, Dems aren't doing enough by far, but I doubt "They still think they can reason with the GOP" is really still a thing. What seems to be the real obstacle these days is they don't seem to be able to get their least progressive members on board with important legislation in their razor-thin majority. If it weren't for Manchin and Sinema I'd bet they'd have pushed the stimulus through already with the minimum wage hike and moved on to the next pressing issue.

[Bodakane]

That's not the problem, that's a problem. Which I pointed out.

The problem is that you only have one functional political party capable of governance in DC. The problem is that Republicans would reject literally anything proposed by the Democrats unless it was a Republican wish-list. The problem is that they're not even willing to negotiate in good faith.



Unrelated problem to passing the stimulus.



Because, as I and others pointed out in November, Democratic control is by a razor thin margin and a few members of the House and especially Senate can derail a bill. Because the Democrats have a far larger tent and have to deal with more ideological diversity than Republicans (see your progressive Squad members/Sanders/Cori Bush etc. and folks like Manchin/Sinema/Feinstein).

It's hardly as simple of a situation as you present it to be, even though we all wish it was just that simple.

Sigh.

I spend years telling you guys that the way to force the Repubs back closer to center is for the Dems to go more progressive, in effect pulling them and the country back to center, the same way they pulled the country further right. I tell you guys the people want progressive policies and new ideas and will vote for them. You tell me I'm wrong.

Now that they barely won, by going as little progressive as possible, they cannot pass the easiest slam dunks they'll ever have, and its because they have very unprogressive members in their ranks....and I'm still told that's not the problem.

[Thepersona]

Don't worry Manchin will soon be replaced by a far right senator.

That would be a way worse option, yes. The only flipside is that said idiot would lose all of his power and he would be shunned and forced out of politics for the rest of his life.

Also, werent you the dude who claimed that Dotardito would win in a landslide (and he lost by ~7M votes)