Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Kellhound]

I don't disagree with you on most common.
But come on when discussing here you should be beyond the common and on to the detailed and more accurate, would you not agree?

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They are leaving out a VERY IMPORTANT detail that would allow people to make educated decisions and understand what is really happening to gas prices (and its not just gas prices).
Again, most of the "better" publications and sources will in fact not leave out this important detail.


seems in the age of everyone being so worried about...fake outrage....inflation all of a sudden that everyone at this point would understand it.

The statement "Gas prices haven't been this high since 2014" is very accurate. It is also obvious that the statement is discussing absolute cost, not relative cost.

Its not an important detail, it is a different detail. Its importance only comes from the context it is being discussed in.

[Draco-Onis]

We also don't really try to to it either. But this is going nowhere.

You are right we are not going to agree. I am just baffled by your mindset, you are strongly opposed to even studying the possibility of country wide public transportation but happy to dump trillions in Afghanistan.

My only conclusion is that you must personally benefit from it.

[Edge-]

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-m...ase-2021-7?amp

The withdrawal from Afghanistan doesn't seem to be going great. Apparently one of the bases was partially abandoned, they took most of the stuff, destroyed some stuff, but left a LOT behind. Not just like, Monster and guitars, but also armored vehicles and some light weaponry/ammunition. Some was intentionally left behind to be transferred, but it seems like we left a lot more behind for folks to just stroll up and take.

We need to get the hell out, but I'd hope it'd be more orderly than this, even if it takes a bit more time.

[Breccia]

it seems like we left a lot more behind for folks to just stroll up and take.

I'm having Mujahideen flashbacks.

[Kellhound]

You are right we are not going to agree. I am just baffled by your mindset, you are strongly opposed to even studying the possibility of country wide public transportation but happy to dump trillions in Afghanistan.

My only conclusion is that you must personally benefit from it.

1: We have a country wide public transportation system, its called the Interstate. Plus we have Amtrak, and I fully support Amtrak.
2: Done properly and immediately, it would not have cost trillions.

I have no stake in either.

[Collegeguy]

Leaving behind the MRAP vehicles is pretty terrible. I guess we could give Toyota a break though and give the Taliban a new image.

[Draco-Onis]

Done properly and immediately, it would not have cost trillions.

I have no stake in either.

ROFLMAO, I think we are done here it's clear you are delusional thinking we can rebuild an entire country under a decade and it would not cost trillions. I also don't believe that you don't have a stake in this either there aren't many people that would look at all our wars and wish we spent more.

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https://www.businessinsider.com/us-m...ase-2021-7?amp

The withdrawal from Afghanistan doesn't seem to be going great. Apparently one of the bases was partially abandoned, they took most of the stuff, destroyed some stuff, but left a LOT behind. Not just like, Monster and guitars, but also armored vehicles and some light weaponry/ammunition. Some was intentionally left behind to be transferred, but it seems like we left a lot more behind for folks to just stroll up and take.

We need to get the hell out, but I'd hope it'd be more orderly than this, even if it takes a bit more time.

I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.

[Fugus]

I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.

I personally think at this point that anyone who wishes to leave with the withdrawal should be given asylum and let all the women and children get out of that hellhole before they come back.

Then after we have left and all those who wish to have also left, the Taliban can enjoy the sausage fest that is left behind.

[Kellhound]

ROFLMAO, I think we are done here it's clear you are delusional thinking we can rebuild an entire country under a decade and it would not cost trillions. I also don't believe that you don't have a stake in this either there aren't many people that would look at all our wars and wish we spent more.

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I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.

Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.

[Mihalik]

Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.

"Nation building" is and has always been a failed concept. Afghanistan is not Germany, Japan, Korea or even Iraq.

US political planners drew the wrong conclusions from the experiences in Germany, Japan and Korea. Those countries never needed the US to teach them "Functional Nation State 101" any US assistance given was there mostly just to accelerate the process of national reconstruction and to ensure an outcome that would be strategically favorable to the US.

Afghanistan is wildly different than those countries and the lessons learned from them are not applicable to it. It would have taken generations to just even create a basic sense of national unity and some level of cultural and even linguistic coherence to build a country on.

Hell, even Iraq is mostly just held together by chicken wire, good luck and Iranian goodwill, influence and military interventions.

Seriously your ideas on US military interventions, especially regarding Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are so asinine that not even the most gungho military brass don't share it.

[Blur4stuff]

arguing that Afghanistan could have turned out well if only it had been done right sounds like, "But real communism has never been tried" kinda comments

[Kellhound]

"Nation building" is and has always been a failed concept. Afghanistan is not Germany, Japan, Korea or even Iraq.

US political planners drew the wrong conclusions from the experiences in Germany, Japan and Korea. Those countries never needed the US to teach them "Functional Nation State 101" any US assistance given was there mostly just to accelerate the process of national reconstruction and to ensure an outcome that would be strategically favorable to the US.

Afghanistan is wildly different than those countries and the lessons learned from them are not applicable to it. It would have taken generations to just even create a basic sense of national unity and some level of cultural and even linguistic coherence to build a country on.

Hell, even Iraq is mostly just held together by chicken wire, good luck and Iranian goodwill, influence and military interventions.

Seriously your ideas on US military interventions, especially regarding Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are so asinine that not even the most gungho military brass don't share it.

"Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge. It is unique for every country.

Political failure is not the same as military failure.

It needed rebuilt to pre-1978 status quo.

My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

[Edge-]

My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

Defeating the "state actors" in those three countries is hardly something remotely worth bragging about. That's akin to some professional martial artist bragging that he beat the judo team at the local YMCA.

And as painfully evidenced by all three, that's not the important part. It's easy as piss and gives us, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" nonsense. Weird that locals aren't always super receptive to the US bringing peace, stability, and Democracy, and that the result is usually that they just hate us more.

[Mihalik]

My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

That is rhetorical nonsense akin to saying "We didn't lose the war, we just failed to win" .

In political and strategic terms we lost and the conflicts were never winnable in the first place as the objectives were by default impossible to achieve.

Furthermore...

"Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge

Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.

The inability to comprehend that the locals might not want "The American Way" no matter how many guns you point at them and how much money you're willing to burn is very Bush Era politics, a delusion that Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc and the past 20 years as a whole should have cured by now.

[Edge-]

Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.

I feel like that biker show meme with the dude and his dad is relevant here.

"WHY WON'T YOU LEAVE!?"
"I'M NATION BUILDING!"
"YOU DESTROYED OUR INFRASTRUCTURE TO BEGIN WITH!"
"I'M BRINGING FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY TO YOUR BACKWARDS ASS NATION!"
"WE NEVER EVEN FUCKING ASKED YOU INVADE IN THE FIRST PLACE!"

[bladeXcrasher]

My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

Speak for yourself, even my loony ass libertarian veteran friends don't share your delusional ideas, least of all myself.

[unfilteredJW]

"Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge. It is unique for every country.

Political failure is not the same as military failure.

It needed rebuilt to pre-1978 status quo.

My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

As someone who had to write extensively about the failures of containment warfare, you don’t have the foggiest.

[PACOX]

Anyone ever dealt with a kid or a very stupid adult who you warned to not do something because they were incapable of dealing with the consequences. They do it anyway cause a mess, and then aren't equipped to deal with the mess. That's Afghanistan.

The US tried to make cookies without even a bowl to mix them in. Now there's sticky cookie dough all over the counter and an new ant infestation.

I mean, China, is pretty happy we are gone. They will create another serf out of Afghanistan that we've prepared for them.

[Omega10]

Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.

This is a very depressing comment. Your goal is to rebuild America up to the point that we are equal to any other Second World Country.

As it turns out, you are correct in that this is a very ambitious goal for the US at this time.

[Kellhound]

Defeating the "state actors" in those three countries is hardly something remotely worth bragging about. That's akin to some professional martial artist bragging that he beat the judo team at the local YMCA.

And as painfully evidenced by all three, that's not the important part. It's easy as piss and gives us, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" nonsense. Weird that locals aren't always super receptive to the US bringing peace, stability, and Democracy, and that the result is usually that they just hate us more.

It is what the US military was designed to do. It performed that job excellently. The military worked, the politicians fell flat on their face.

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That is rhetorical nonsense akin to saying "We didn't lose the war, we just failed to win" .

In political and strategic terms we lost and the conflicts were never winnable in the first place as the objectives were by default impossible to achieve.

Furthermore...



Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.

The inability to comprehend that the locals might not want "The American Way" no matter how many guns you point at them and how much money you're willing to burn is very Bush Era politics, a delusion that Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc and the past 20 years as a whole should have cured by now.

It is incorrect to say they were not winnable, we just didn't have the commitment to do what was need.

I never claimed they needed "The American Way".

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Speak for yourself, even my loony ass libertarian veteran friends don't share your delusional ideas, least of all myself.

Which delusional ideas? That we defeated the state actors or that we failed to pacify the insurrections?

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As someone who had to write extensively about the failures of containment warfare, you don’t have the foggiest.

I studied international conflict resolution actually.

Of course containment warfare failed, we never addressed the reasons the conflicts we got involved with wouldn't die, and usually just added gas to the fire.

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Anyone ever dealt with a kid or a very stupid adult who you warned to not do something because they were incapable of dealing with the consequences. They do it anyway cause a mess, and then aren't equipped to deal with the mess. That's Afghanistan.

The US tried to make cookies without even a bowl to mix them in. Now there's sticky cookie dough all over the counter and an new ant infestation.

I mean, China, is pretty happy we are gone. They will create another serf out of Afghanistan that we've prepared for them.

Afghanistan would consume China as it has all the other empires that have come and gone.

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This is a very depressing comment. Your goal is to rebuild America up to the point that we are equal to any other Second World Country.

As it turns out, you are correct in that this is a very ambitious goal for the US at this time.

It is actually impossible for the US to be anything but a First World country by traditional definition.