Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Draco-Onis]

The reason Manchin won’t go Republican is he’d be trading in all this power. He can get West Virginians what they want in bills because Democrats are fully reliant on his vote in a 50-50 Senate.

And if democrats had any balls they would simply kick him out if the doesn't vote for voting rights, his seat means jack shit compared to all the swing states that democrats are going to lose thanks to these laws.

Biden has to start negotiating in good faith with Sinema and Manchin instead of trying to force them to bend to $3tril spending bills for the good of the party. It sounds like Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer have started to recognize this by cutting tons off of the reconciliation spending plan to make it more palatable to them. But seriously, it took Dem leadership around 4 months and counting to decide not to bully Dems into losing their seats in order to pass the thing.

They cut the bill in half gutted most of the popular provisions to please Manchin and Sinema, if someone is not negotiating in good faith it's them who change their minds every day.

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Oh yeah, it's a shitshow. But it's an endemic issue in the US. The entire structure is so pro-corporate, that there is little to no chance a progressive can actually properly take a foothold in the meaningful parts of the country. The 'liberal' areas are not progressive and pro-people.

I disagree somewhat it's not that the liberal areas are not progressives, it's that most of the country is purple. The one thing both the democratic party and republican party agree on is that they hate progressives. So a progressive has to fight their own party and the opposition, in Buffalo that mean republicans helped eek out the win.

Look at AOCs re-election they not only changed the rules but both parties financed the opposition against her. The pro-corporate money flows through both parties and they hate progressives.

[DingDongKing]

I disagree somewhat it's not that the liberal areas are not progressives, it's that most of the country is purple. The one thing both the democratic party and republican party agree on is that they hate progressives. Look at AOCs re-election they not only changed the rules but both parties financed the opposition against her. The pro-corporate money flows through both parties and they hate progressives.

That's my point. The parties will do whatever they can to stymie actual progress.

Even the California 'liberals' are mostly rich people who live in comfort. They DGAF about people below the poverty line or needing a hand up.

[Draco-Onis]

That's my point. The parties will do whatever they can to stymie actual progress.

Even the California 'liberals' are mostly rich people who live in comfort. They DGAF about people below the poverty line or needing a hand up.

The result is depressed turn out for democrats along with major losses, Biden's presidency will be noted in history as the time we could have done something but didn't. Those Jim Crow laws pretty much guarantee a Trump win in 2024, Biden only won by less 100K votes. He is a lame duck president who didn't rise to the occasion, democrats failed to capitalize on the insurrection and Trump because no one of note has been held accountable.

[DingDongKing]

The result is depressed turn out for democrats along with major losses, Biden's presidency will be noted in history as the time we could have done something but didn't. Those Jim Crow laws pretty much guarantee a Trump win in 2024, Biden only won by less 100K votes. He is a lame duck president who didn't rise to the occasion, democrats failed to capitalize on the insurrection and Trump because no one of note has been held accountable.

I don't see this as Biden's fault as much as it's the Senate that is failing. Biden in himself can only do so much.

Manchin/Sinema have intentionally gutted his Presidency. Money talks.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't see this as Biden's fault as much as it's the Senate that is failing. Biden in himself can only do so much.

Manchin/Sinema have intentionally gutted his Presidency. Money talks.

To be fair to him Biden was never a change and excitement candidate even with Trump on the ballot he barely eeked out a win.

[DingDongKing]

To be fair to him Biden was never a change and excitement candidate even with Trump on the ballot he barely eeked out a win.

He was far more progressive a candidate than everyone else on the ballot bar Sanders/Warren. Issue again is that a) the vast majority of the US is backward as fuck in terms of understanding what policies impact them b) the Senate is corrupt to the rafters. They will not bring the work to fruition.

[DingDongKing]

I'm not sure what else Biden could possibly do. It isn't like he's sat on his hands and ignored the 2 thorns in the democratic side.

The Manchin Sinematic Universe's main characters are just enjoying the attention, and money, way too much to ever actually be truly useful to their side, even with their supposed allies doing what they can to get them onside. They're garbage people, and will continue to be so because they can get away with it, while enriching themselves. Standard piece of shit politicians, I guess.

Basically this. Biden can't force people into action. He's not Trump. And the Dem voting base isn't the Trump voting base.

[tehdang]

And if democrats had any balls they would simply kick him out if the doesn't vote for voting rights, his seat means jack shit compared to all the swing states that democrats are going to lose thanks to these laws.

They still know he'll vote for compromise legislation, like the bipartisan infrastructure bill and COVID relief bill. They just want more, because that's the activist fervor in the Democratic party.

They cut the bill in half gutted most of the popular provisions to please Manchin and Sinema, if someone is not negotiating in good faith it's them who change their minds every day.

Yeah, after roughly three months of brinkmanship and threats/actual policy of holding a second bill, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, hostage. That's where Biden and House and Senate leadership wasted time fruitlessly trying to force Manchin and Sinema to cave and give them everything they wanted. The true negotiations began after that strategy was exhausted.

[Draco-Onis]

Yeah, after roughly three months of brinkmanship and threats/actual policy of holding a second bill, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, hostage. That's where Biden and House and Senate leadership wasted time fruitlessly trying to force Manchin and Sinema to cave and give them everything they wanted. The true negotiations began after that strategy was exhausted.

Giving them everything they want is not negotiating in good faith? seriously? what more can they give them?

[DingDongKing]

Giving them everything they want is not negotiating in good faith? seriously? what more can they give them?

I'm not even sure what would've actually convinced Manchin and Sinema to not be dickheads.

[Muzjhath]

Giving them everything they want is not negotiating in good faith? seriously? what more can they give them?

For Manchin, more money for his sons (and his) coal company. And allow his daughter to scam money out of people for legal drugs.
For Sinema? Give her a billion dollars and a reality TV show and she'd probably back anything.

[unfilteredJW]

I'm not even sure what would've actually convinced Manchin and Sinema to not be dickheads.

More money than they get for being cunts.

[Edge-]

And if democrats had any balls they would simply kick him out if the doesn't vote for voting rights, his seat means jack shit compared to all the swing states that democrats are going to lose thanks to these laws.

What kind of 234-D chess is "Let's literally hand Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority so we can't even get any judges confirmed!"?

Good lord, my guy.

[Fugus]

What kind of 234-D chess is "Let's literally hand Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority so we can't even get any judges confirmed!"?

Good lord, my guy.

Sad thing is, Manchin is playing the chess match like a guy paid to take a dive. While the Democratic party as a whole has been playing that strategy for years it feels like.

Hard to be weak while pretending to be strong if they don't have someone willing to take that dive and block them. If they had a 60+ seat majority, part of me thinks they would do everything they could to "Work across the isle and be bipartisan" and would just compromise everything away anyways.

[uuuhname]

so we're right back in the mid to late 00's where voters hand the democrats the white house and the legislative branch and then proceed to do:
nothing
nothing
nothing
still nothing
lose governorships
nothing
nothing
lose the mid terms
lose dozens of seats in congress
nothing
nothing

except this time they are so useless I can't even say they'll win in 2024 (and then proceed to do nothing until they lose in 2028) before laying the ground work for yet another fascist wannabe to become president. they, much like the GOP, are speed running towards that outcome.

[Draco-Onis]

so we're right back in the mid to late 00's where voters hand the democrat the white house and the legislative branch and then proceed to do:
nothing
nothing
nothing
still nothing
lose governorships
nothing
nothing
lose the mid terms
lose dozens of seats in congress
nothing
nothing

except this time they are so useless I can't even say they'll win in 2024 (and then proceed to do nothing until they lose in 2028) before laying the ground work for yet another fascist wannabe to become president. they, much like the GOP, are speed running towards that outcome.

Democrats aka the definition of insanity.

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What kind of 234-D chess is "Let's literally hand Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority so we can't even get any judges confirmed!"?

Good lord, my guy.

Oh yeah judges that will definitely secure democracy and the future of the party nothing wins elections like judicial confirmations /s

2022 those laws also put the senate in play if Manchin isn't going to help them win then his seat is worth jack shit.

[Edge-]

Oh yeah judges that will definitely secure democracy and the future of the party nothing wins elections like judicial confirmations /s

As opposed to the alternative the the court being packed with more young, activist conservative justices? As opposed to not getting the ARA passed because McConnell would have never allowed it?

Yeah man, I guess we really are better off with Republicans in charge. You voting (R) down the ballot the next election?

[Paranoid Android]

What kind of 234-D chess is "Let's literally hand Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority so we can't even get any judges confirmed!"?

Good lord, my guy.

Umm? Idk at the point if Manchin is worth it. Let's say a SCOTUS position comes up. An obtw, is Kagan and even Sotomayor, who i thought was younger, may only have a 1 year window. The Dems will lose the Senate in 2022. So Manchin is a shitter cause he wont have power to do shit. Yet, now if we lose a judge when Biden is Prez, No Effin way we getting a judge.

I'm sorry but we give a pass to Manchin and Sinema with the hand wave of "well they pass some laws". Idk if that's enough anymore. I hate Manchin but yeah I struggle with at least he voted to impeach. Yet, he is killing the Dems right now and has for past few years honestly. I agree he uses his power way too much to make the Dems bend.

Edit: I will just say this as the Dems vs Republicans. The Republicans never have this problem, even with Miss I'm Really Concerned, Susan Collins, she jumps so much in line with the Republicans. I mean you cant' govern these days if say 46 of 48 in your party agree on bills and you hold it up. We all know why, cause the other party doesn't want to contribute to the process anymore. So yeah its basically a party rule if you are in power. That is your only chance.

[Dontrike]

I'm not even sure what would've actually convinced Manchin and Sinema to not be dickheads.

Basically not do things that would impact his children.

[Edge-]

Umm? Idk at the point if Manchin is worth it. Let's say a SCOTUS position comes up. An obtw, is Kagan and even Sotomayor, who i thought was younger, may only have a 1 year window. The Dems will lose the Senate in 2022. So Manchin is a shitter cause he wont have power to do shit. Yet, now if we lose a judge when Biden is Prez, No Effin way we getting a judge.

I'm sorry but we give a pass to Manchin and Sinema with the hand wave of "well they pass some laws". Idk if that's enough anymore. I hate Manchin but yeah I struggle with at least he voted to impeach. Yet, he is killing the Dems right now and has for past few years honestly. I agree he uses his power way too much to make the Dems bend.

Nobody is. I'd love to get back to a Senate where they're irrelevant and Democrats can completely ignore them. But we're continually pointing out that this is the reality we have to work with now, and the alternative of one/both of those seats being held by a Republican is even worse.

Do we forget Mitch McConnell's comments about stonewalling the Obama, and now Biden, administration from getting anything done as his main goal in the Senate?

So I mean yeah, Manchin bad! Boot Manchin out of the party! I agree in that "Fuck Manchin", but he's sadly necessary for the Democrats to hold their razor slim "majority".

Kagan and Sotomayor aren't even the primary concerns right now, Breyer is and there's been pressure for him to retire now before Republicans take back the Senate and refuse to vote on another replacement candidate.