Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

Anyone been paying attention to all these guys who keep getting arrested with tons of guns and ammo plotting to do mass shootings?

Biden is. This dot-gov link will spell out what he's planning on doing about the rise in domestic terrorism. I will give you a hint: "have journalists investigated because they questioned Biden" isn't on the list.

[Kellhound]

I was on the ground, not a fobet. I saw directly the change we made in several towns and areas, making them safer for the general public. Maybe that explains why my opinions come from real-world experience and not a book or computer screen. You ever hear of the Battle of Baqubah? I was there for it all. I lost many friends there, and I saw with my own eyes the difference we made. We won.

If you look back, you will see I have always said we won the military side of it. We won the Tactical and Operational side, we failed on the Strategic and Grand Strategic side. I have not and never would claim a superior understanding of land warfare tactical combat over infantry troops, but that wasn't where we lost. The troops on the ground did an excellent job, the politicians at home ensured it was for naught.

[Omega10]

If you look back, you will see I have always said we won the military side of it. We won the Tactical and Operational side, we failed on the Strategic and Grand Strategic side. I have not and never would claim a superior understanding of land warfare tactical combat over infantry troops, but that wasn't where we lost. The troops on the ground did an excellent job, the politicians at home ensured it was for naught.

Well yeah. Colin Powell said it would take 450k troops to win the war, Cheney said we'll go with what we got (I think it was 150k or so troops), and it turns out that Powell was correct.

The comments here illustrate exactly what Powell was talking about. With 150k troops we could win anywhere we wanted. BUT WE COULDN'T WIN EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME. So we fight and win a glorious victory at point A, go on to point B, but win just as well at B buy we lose control of A. Go back to A, lose B, rinse and repeat. This scenario is perfectly consistent with pretty much all of the comments made here.

And it wasn't just the politicians that lost the war. The American public was 90% behind sending 150k troops to fight a war that the Colin Powell said would take 450K troops. The American public said Powell is wrong and we're behind trying it with the force we have.

[Kaleredar]

Well yeah. Colin Powell said it would take 450k troops to win the war, Cheney said we'll go with what we got (I think it was 150k or so troops), and it turns out that Powell was correct.

The comments here illustrate exactly what Powell was talking about. With 150k troops we could win anywhere we wanted. BUT WE COULDN'T WIN EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME. So we fight and win a glorious victory at point A, go on to point B, but win just as well at B buy we lose control of A. Go back to A, lose B, rinse and repeat. This scenario is perfectly consistent with pretty much all of the comments made here.

And it wasn't just the politicians that lost the war. The American public was 90% behind sending 150k troops to fight a war that the Colin Powell said would take 450K troops. The American public said Powell is wrong and we're behind trying it with the force we have.

We're straying quite far off of point here, but the larger takeaway is that, in essence... there was no way to really "win." Just like with Vietnam.

The more the existing power structure was destroyed, the more rogue factions rose to fill it. The more those rogue factions were struck by US shock and awe tactics that caused collateral damage, the more civilians were driven from supporting the US' efforts. And as you noted, taking one area often lead to losing another in an endless cycle. The enemy, in the myriad factions they came in, could always blend back in with the population or run off into the hinterlands and regroup. Just like with Vietnam.

If you want to trace the "original fuckup" back to the source, it wasn't that the US should have just stormed the area with more troops, it's that it should never have launched an invasion under false pretenses in the first place.

[JohnBrown1917]

I was on the ground, not a fobet. I saw directly the change we made in several towns and areas, making them safer for the general public. Maybe that explains why my opinions come from real-world experience and not a book or computer screen. You ever hear of the Battle of Baqubah? I was there for it all. I lost many friends there, and I saw with my own eyes the difference we made. We won.

Should tell that to million or more Iraqi civilians the US killed. I'm sure they are very happy the US won.

[uuuhname]

I didn't see US troops blowing themselves up, killing innocent bystanders. I didn't see US troops using children to lay IEDs, often resulting in the child himself being blown up during placement of the explosive.

Take your pearls and shove 'em.

I mean, there is plenty of evidence of US troops and private contractors committing war crimes against civilians...

[Kellhound]

We're straying quite far off of point here, but the larger takeaway is that, in essence... there was no way to really "win." Just like with Vietnam.

The more the existing power structure was destroyed, the more rogue factions rose to fill it. The more those rogue factions were struck by US shock and awe tactics that caused collateral damage, the more civilians were driven from supporting the US' efforts. And as you noted, taking one area often lead to losing another in an endless cycle. The enemy, in the myriad factions they came in, could always blend back in with the population or run off into the hinterlands and regroup. Just like with Vietnam.

If you want to trace the "original fuckup" back to the source, it wasn't that the US should have just stormed the area with more troops, it's that it should never have launched an invasion under false pretenses in the first place.

There was a way to win, but that would have required more troops and significant investments of time and money for non-combat missions.

[Poopymonster]

What exactly did you win when the moment you leave, it all goes back to the way it was before?

That is winning a battle, but losing the war.

A paycheck.

[Draco-Onis]

There was a way to win, but that would have required more troops and significant investments of time and money for non-combat missions.

I don't think you will find many people that would advocate for turning all these places into basically colonies of the US.

[Dontrike]

A fraction of the ''million or more" as described above...

"It was only a small amount of war crimes" is not the argument you think it is.

[Themius]

I didn't see US troops blowing themselves up, killing innocent bystanders. I didn't see US troops using children to lay IEDs, often resulting in the child himself being blown up during placement of the explosive.

Take your pearls and shove 'em.

There are death squads that the CIA uses…that’s just public knowledge…

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I was on the ground, not a fobet. I saw directly the change we made in several towns and areas, making them safer for the general public. Maybe that explains why my opinions come from real-world experience and not a book or computer screen. You ever hear of the Battle of Baqubah? I was there for it all. I lost many friends there, and I saw with my own eyes the difference we made. We won.

What did you "win" and why was the war "worth" it?

"We got rid of a leader we didn't like he killed people! So we replaced no leader and then killed more people than he did! Oh and then to rebuild the country we hired private companies from the west which starved the country of billions after we destroyed it!"

You lost your friends.. people lost several generations of family, they lost their entire country... your friends were over there fighting a shit war for the USA...

And tell me "why" were we there was it good? WAs it for 9/11? I mean this all started with 9/11 and we actually fuckingallied with the country behind it and help them commit warcrimes against Yemen, so I guess 9/11 was nothing then.

The only thing that needs to be shoved is your fucking "American Hero" mindset.

"We made it safer for the general public! Never mind the million or so dead." is a really dumb take...

[JohnBrown1917]

I didn't see US troops blowing themselves up, killing innocent bystanders. I didn't see US troops using children to lay IEDs, often resulting in the child himself being blown up during placement of the explosive.

Take your pearls and shove 'em.

You have fun having zero shame in being part of an invading force responsible for over a million deaths, says a lot about you that you actually feel proud about it.


But your right the number might include military deaths... of a country you where invading, so its still not justified.

[Themius]

You have fun having zero shame in being part of an invading force responsible for over a million deaths, says a lot about you that you actually feel proud about it

Imperialists with some racist posts in the past approves of America's subjugation of another country, colour me shocked!

It seems no one can really explain why we even went to war with Iraq to begin with...9/11? No.. that was our ally... who we are currently helping to commit more warcrimes in Yemen.

[JohnBrown1917]

Wow some real anti-Americans in this thread, which is about our president no less.

Just wow.

We where not the ones who brought up the US tendency to invade other countries for personal gain.


But Biden finally pulling out of Afghanistan is atleast a good thing, even if its way too late.

[JohnBrown1917]

"A bad apple now speaks for the entire population" is not the argument you think it is. Isn't there a movement arguing against that exact same point right now? BLM I believe they call themselves.

Lmao, if you think that is what BLM is about you really must follow way too many conservative media outlets.

But yeah, it speaks for the entire army if they commit war crimes, or does the US have a ton of rogue soldiers now? Rogue soldiers who don't get convicted for some reason?

[JohnBrown1917]

Nah, but you couldn't wait to throw your disgust towards American veterans into this thread, could ya

Not my problem if somebody brings up Iraqi war veterans and pretending they actually did good by taking part in an invasion of their own free will.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Imperialists with some racist posts in the past approves of America's subjugation of another country, colour me shocked!

It seems no one can really explain why we even went to war with Iraq to begin with...9/11? No.. that was our ally... who we are currently helping to commit more warcrimes in Yemen.

Oil.

Dick Cheney was elated with 9/11 because it gave them a reason to invade Iraq.

[JohnBrown1917]

Like I said, I was actually there. You did nothing, but read and watch videos about it. I saw the good we did while over there while I was there for about 2.5 years cumulatively. I saw the difference in the towns and provinces. Did bad things happen? Of course it's war. Did civilians get hurt/killed by US troops? Yes and there's no excuse for that imo. Was that the 'norm'? Absolutely fkn not and you would be a fool to say/think otherwise.

Yeah, your biased view is not going to change any minds here. No excuses? You where the invading force, you had no fighting right to just start shooting up another nation because your overlords wanted more oil.


Good on you that you believe your own bullshit, but anybody who looks into it knows what damage the US did to Iraq. You did not save anybody, you caused death. Your no better than your average murderer.

[JohnBrown1917]

Yeah how dare I believe my own eyes. lol I have several people living in Iraq on my friggin' Facebook friendls list still you have zero clue what you're talking about. You have no idea what division I was with, what our mission was, nor our success/failure rate on said mission throughout the course of our campaign(s) (I deployed twice).

You just have a hate boner for US troops and veterans and it is on full display here. This will be my las reply to you comrade.

You really coming up with some great excuses for your role in killing a ton of Iraqi people.


I really don't give a fuck what division you where on, they where all part of it. Those who regret it might at least have a conscience, but you even went on 2 tours. I take it back about you being level with a murder, serial killer/mass murderer is more fitting. And all that just for some Oil.

Its sicking how anybody can believe they are doing good by invading other countries.


I don't mind being banned for this, but you folk sicken me just as much as your average fascist does, your no better than them.
And with that ill be taking a nice vacation from this place once the mods wake up.

[jonnysensible]

You really coming up with some great excuses for your role in killing a ton of Iraqi people.


I really don't give a fuck what division you where on, they where all part of it. Those who regret it might at least have a conscience, but you even went on 2 tours. I take it back about you being level with a murder, serial killer/mass murderer is more fitting. And all that just for some Oil.

Its sicking how anybody can believe they are doing good by invading other countries.


I don't mind being banned for this, but you folk sicken me just as much as your average fascist does, your no better than them.
And with that ill be taking a nice vacation from this place once the mods wake up.

wait i thought you liked imperialist serial killers? weren't you wanking off to Qasem Soleimani in another thread?