Arbiter - What broke the cycle (Answer found?)

[Demonly]

Hello,

Lots of people speculating on this. I believe I have found the answer, and it makes a lot of sense too.

As far as we know:
- The cycle of death was not broke until after the Emerald Nightmare raid
- The cycle of death had been broke for some until during the burning of Teldrassil.

I purpose the following sentiment:
The cycle of death broke during the raid of the Nighthold. After the killing of Gul'dan.

Time paradoxes mess with everything, Gul'dan of our reality had already been dead for quite some time. The reasoning for the red spirit could be a hint at the red portal to Draenor, which would explain why the cycle of death broke. Gul'dans spirit was not of our reality and had already been judged once before so the Arbiter could not judge the soul. This fits in with the storyline of when Sylvanas begins to go down a super dark path as the Helya raid and her pact would then come into fruition.

Also:
- Gul'dan as far as I am aware was the only soul that came through the Dark Portal (red) that had already previously died in our world once before.

Please provide counter arguments to this I am curious to hear what other peoples thoughts are on this.

[leggomydairy]

You know this makes a lot of sense. I saw Argus being thrown around but people kept saying his soul was blue? This is plausible. Assuming they throw out their garbage multiverse explanation for a simpler one...different universe, different Legion / SL / Azeroth / etc.

[Demonly]

You know this makes a lot of sense. I saw Argus being thrown around but people kept saying his soul was blue? This is plausible. Assuming they throw out their garbage multiverse explanation for a simpler one...different universe, different Legion / SL / Azeroth / etc.

I've seen Argus being thrown around, and a lot of people saying he was the death titan. However.. I don't believe this is the case only because we have known lore that states Titans souls do not go to the shadowlands. (Hence why the rest of the pantheon upon death was able to be trapped by Sargeras instead of their souls being sent to the shadowlands, as their souls wandered the cosmos forever)

[leggomydairy]

I guess the only issue I have with this theory is the recent comment “multiple threads of the same individual tied to the same rope” in response to multiple souls for say, Draka.

[Demonly]

I guess the only issue I have with this theory is the recent comment “multiple threads of the same individual tied to the same rope” in response to multiple souls for say, Draka.

As far as I am aware Draka from Draenor(AU) didn't die on our world though? Only Gul'Dan

For years after Archimonde's death, the draenei and orcs lived in peace until naaru arrived on Draenor and the draenei became fanatical. Forming the Lightbound, they began to spread the Light whether others wanted them to or not; while some orcs joined willingly, others had it forced upon them. Durotan and Draka had a child named Geya'rah, and Durotan was killed by the Lightbound. Decades after the battle against Archimonde, Draka commanded a garrison in Nagrand against the Lightbound. Draka and other orcs were left behind when the Mag'har group led by Geya'rah escaped to Azeroth

This would be correct, Gul'dan is still the only one who's died twice on our world.

[loras]

Hello,

Lots of people speculating on this. I believe I have found the answer, and it makes a lot of sense too.

As far as we know:
- The cycle of death was not broke until after the Emerald Nightmare raid
- The cycle of death had been broke for some until during the burning of Teldrassil.

I purpose the following sentiment:
The cycle of death broke during the raid of the Nighthold. After the killing of Gul'dan.

Time paradoxes mess with everything, Gul'dan of our reality had already been dead for quite some time. The reasoning for the red spirit could be a hint at the red portal to Draenor, which would explain why the cycle of death broke. Gul'dans spirit was not of our reality and had already been judged once before so the Arbiter could not judge the soul. This fits in with the storyline of when Sylvanas begins to go down a super dark path as the Helya raid and her pact would then come into fruition.

Also:
- Gul'dan as far as I am aware was the only soul that came through the Dark Portal (red) that had already previously died in our world once before.

Please provide counter arguments to this I am curious to hear what other peoples thoughts are on this.

Mythic Argus was entirely red and rife with death magic abilities, but we don't know what depleted titan souls do upon "death", though from Sargeras' cleaving of worlds we know they can truly die (at least in/near their infant stage, as Argus was basically a premature birth).

So yeah, Gul'dan's death, Argus' death, Sargeras' swordstab or perhaps even Helya's death or dealings, or Xavius' death could do it.
Remember that the Emerald Nightmare turned everything red too.

So yeah, i'd say there are still plenty of potential culprits for which a case could be made.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

What broke the Arbiter was that random blast of red energy that she got hit with.

[Maljinwo]

People from the multiverse are judged as one according to Danuser who said it was like "strings in the same rope"

So dying twice shouldn't be an issue

[leggomydairy]

Found the interview. They used Draka as an example so I did too.

How do you deal with things like alternate Draenor? There was a Draka there? What is that Draka? Is she alive? Is she dead is she the Draka that is in Shadowlands that we see or is there another Draka? We know that in Warlords the Velen that was of that universe died, does that mean there’s a Velen in the Shadowlands but what about the Velen that’s on Azeroth?

“All these things are very complicated questions, and the way that I would have you think about it is: think of a rope. If you look at a rope, it is one thing, right? It’s something that you can grab onto, you can hold, you can see it and think of that as, like, a character think of that rope as Draka or Velen. But if you look at that rope, you can see that there are different threads that make up the rope, right? There are different twines that pull together and you can kind of pull off one of those threads if you want. But it’s still a rope, and each of those threads you can think of as one of the realities of the character, one of the streams of time. So, there’s a thread that is the Draka from the Draenor that we visited in Warlords of Draenor. There’s another thread that is Draka on Azeroth and there are many other threads that could be other realities that we never peered into.

“Those threads can be separate for a time, but sooner or later, they do combine to make the one rope that is that character. So you can think of it as the threads of that rope all the individual threads are just waiting and over time they will come together sooner or later, but they can exist as separate entities for a time. But that still doesn’t change the fact that they are part of one rope.”

[Varodoc]

Whoever, or whatever, broke the machine of Death is something that will be relevant in the future.

Argus the Unmaker makes sense, because the Titans (specifically Sargeras) will certainly play a major role in a future expansion, so it just makes sense to connect Shadowlands with the demise of the Death Titan in Legion. Especially since we certainly haven't seen the last of Argus who, as I said, is literally a Titan of Death. I doubt it's THAT easy to put down such creatures.

Gul'dan doesn't make sense because he has no role left to play in the storyline. You have to think this from the point of view of a writer, you're not going to pick Gul'dan as the catalyst for the anima drought, because he has no role left to play in the story. "Okay, Gul'dan's death broke the machine of Death... but he's long gone and will never come back, so now what?"

Aside from that, you don't know if Gul'dan is the only one who died twice on our world. We killed dozens upon dozens of Iron Horde grunts that had crossed over to Azeroth, any of them could have had a counterpart that died during the First or Second War.

There's also the fact that AU Gul'dan was disintegrated with Fel, and Fel is known to consume souls. So, if Blizzard hasn't retconned this (and they haven't so far), then AU Gul'dan was erased from existence, his soul never made it to the Arbiter.

[Demonly]

Mythic Argus was entirely red and rife with death magic abilities, but we don't know what depleted titan souls do upon "death", though from Sargeras' cleaving of worlds we know they can truly die.

So yeah, Gul'dan's death, Argus' death, Sargeras' swordstab or perhaps even Helya's death or dealings, or Xavius' death could do it.
Remember that the Emerald Nightmare turned everything red too.

So yeah, i'd say there are still plenty of potential culprits for which a case could be made.

Death in our realm is death. We are looking for a reasoning for what could have broken it.

Multiple souls whom were of immense evil have died before and been sent to the shadowlands (Archimond, Gul'Dan, etc etc)

Xavius is of our reality

Argus is of our reality.

Sargeras' sword stab only wounded a soul of our reality

Helya is of our reality.

The key here is:
- Gul'dan is not of our reality. He has also died once before (Whereas none of the above have died before), and he came through a RED portal from his reality.

He is the only culprit as the others have no real reasoning behind them as to being able to break the cycle of death, since evils such of themselves have already been dealt with and judged before.

Whoeveer, or whatever, broke the machine of Death is something that will be relevant in the future.

Argus the Unmaker makes sense, because the Titans (specifically Sargeras) will certainly play a major role in a future expansion, so it just makes sense to connect Shadowlands with the demise of the Death Titan in Legion.

Gul'dan doesn't make sense because he has no role left to play in the storyline. You have to think this from the point of view of a writer, you're not going to pick Gul'dan as the catalyst for the anima drought, because he has no role left to play. "Okay, Gul'dan's death broke the machine of Death... now what?"

Aside from that, you don't know if Gul'dan is the only one who died twice on our world. We killed dozens upon dozens of Iron Horde grunts that had crossed over to Azeroth, any of them could have had a counterpart that died during the First or Second War.

He is the only one we know of as far as lore and writings go. Those grunts could've been new souls made after Garrosh converted them to the Iron Horde

[leggomydairy]

Mythic Argus was entirely red and rife with death magic abilities, but we don't know what depleted titan souls do upon "death", though from Sargeras' cleaving of worlds we know they can truly die (at least in/near their infant stage, as Argus was basically a premature birth).

IDEA:

Argus was so juiced up on death magic he went to the shadowlands upon death like any being of death would do. This is similar to how a mortal soul can be twisted enough by fel to be able to reform in the twisting nether. This is what sends Argus to the SL.

Argus has to be making a comeback at some point. I’d be amazed if they never touched the Titans and Argus again.

[stigz]

Yeah but the Voice of the Arbiter guy said she hadn’t stirred “for many cycles” ... how long is a cycle?

My guess is Nerzhul

And this has to do something with the Dreadlords

[Varodoc]

He is the only one we know of as far as lore and writings go. Those grunts could've been new souls made after Garrosh converted them to the Iron Horde

False. Example: Tharbek.

- MU Tharbek was a high-ranking commander serving under Doomhammer during the Second War and met his end in battle.

- AU Tharbek was a high-ranking commander serving under Zaela and met his end in the Upper Blackrock Spire dungeon.

Both incarnations of Tharbek died on Azeroth. So tell me, why would Gul'dan's death break the Arbiter's understanding but not Tharbek's?

[Mic_128]

I've seen Argus being thrown around, and a lot of people saying he was the death titan. However.. I don't believe this is the case only because we have known lore that states Titans souls do not go to the shadowlands.

We don't know that at all.

The rest of the pantheon upon death was able to be trapped by Sargeras instead of their souls being sent to the shadowlands, as their souls wandered the cosmos forever

This was entirely because of a preventative spell cast by Norgonnon.

Unbeknownst to Sargeras, however, the titan Norgannon had managed to weave a final spell which managed to temporarily save the Pantheon's souls from the destruction of their bodies, sending their spirits hurtling out through the cosmos.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sargeras#c...ronicle48_11-3

The only titans we know of to have died properly, was Nihilam, the developing World-soul that had begun being corrupted by the void and then sliced in half by Sargeras, and Argus.

[Dazmalak]

It was a stray energy blast from a dbz character on the other side of the universe.

[loras]

Death in our realm is death. We are looking for a reasoning for what could have broken it.

Multiple souls whom were of immense evil have died before and been sent to the shadowlands (Archimond, Gul'Dan, etc etc)

Xavius is of our reality

Argus is of our reality.

Sargeras' sword stab only wounded a soul of our reality

Helya is of our reality.

The key here is:
- Gul'dan is not of our reality. He has also died once before (Whereas none of the above have died before), and he came through a RED portal from his reality.

He is the only culprit as the others have no real reasoning behind them as to being able to break the cycle of death, since evils such of themselves have already been dealt with and judged before.

No shit.

You do realise alternate timelines are still of our reality, right? They're just dead ends to the same street.

Argus is of the Twisting Nether due to its suffusion with fel magic, distinctly not of our reality.
Xavius literally corrupts from beyond our reality powered by beings even moreso not of our reality.
Helya literally created a pocket reality which borders on the Shadowlands and has been gathering souls for a long time now.

Titans too have proven time and time again to be sufficiently powerful to reach, frustrate and combat things beyond and through reality as well, either Argus' death or Azeroth's wounding likely reverberates beyond the borders of reality, in Argus' case to the point that it allowed the souls of the pantheon to incarcerate Sargeras and close the rift to Argus.

Red features on many of the other candidates, and their bonds to Azerothian reality are no stronger than Gul'dan's. Besides we literally invited the AU mag'har over almost entirely, it seems extremely unlikely that since then only Gul'dan has died twice since then.

I'm nit saying you're certainly wrong, i'm saying there's more options that for now seem just as likely.

[Aucald]

I'm thinking this has something to do with Argus as well - the coloration of Argus' Sargeras-infused form coupled with his connection to Death seems to correlate pretty strongly. It's still an open question, but Argus is looking like the top contender in terms of Arbiter speculation.

[Zenfoldor]

It was a stray energy blast from a dbz character on the other side of the universe.

Frieza laser, imho. Probably fired a millennium ago.

[iosdeveloper]

in my universe Kain and Raziel broke the cycle of borth, death and rebirth

but i really really like your theory