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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    Rise of Skywalker, a story that was created to please the fans no matter what.
    And it pleased no-one. Good intentions don't guarantee a quality outcome, and hard work doesn't necessarily equal good work. Plenty of people in history worked hard, and yet did terrible work. There is no shame in that, btw.

  2. #222
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    @Eapoe you don't need the kindest, purest souls for what is basically a ferrying service. You could basically take any regular soul, doesn’t matter if good or evil, and just mindwipe it. Voila, impartiality is ensured.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    @Eapoe you don't need the kindest, purest souls for what is basically a ferrying service. You could basically take any regular soul, doesn’t matter if good or evil, and just mindwipe it. Voila, impartiality is ensured.
    But it requires those types of souls, the purest and strongest, to pass the tests and rites to ascend and become that impartial being.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    But it requires those types of souls, the purest and strongest, to pass the tests and rites to ascend and become that impartial being.
    Why? If your memories are going to be erased, it doesn’t matter what were you in your past life, since basically you are back to a tabula rasa state. The mindwipe isn't optional anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why? If your memories are going to be erased, it doesn’t matter what were you in your past life, since basically you are back to a tabula rasa state. The mindwipe isn't optional anyway.
    Because the rituals require someone that is that selfless and honorable to pass them, obviously showing the commitment to rise above a selfish nature and able to throw away all ties to your previous life. Those that aren’t able to truly be selfless and ascend to the next step are those that doubt and become like Uther and now Devios.
    The trials need to be passed to ascend. Without being honorable and selfless you can’t pass the trials. It stands within reason that even though a person may ascend, the true nature of their soul remains. If unable to overcome that nature and be better than it still stands that it can resurface. This makes a Kyrian not be impartial or able to perform their duty.
    Let’s take Arthas for example. You can’t take Arthas, send him to Bastion and then mind wipe him to become a Kyrian. His corrupted soul will still remain, and even though his mind has been erased, the evil taint upon him would still be able to corrupt him again, possibly even making him worse than Uther.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Because the rituals require someone that is that selfless and honorable to pass them, obviously showing the commitment to rise above a selfish nature and able to throw away all ties to your previous life. Those that aren’t able to truly be selfless and ascend to the next step are those that doubt and become like Uther and now Devios.
    The trials need to be passed to ascend. Without being honorable and selfless you can’t pass the trials. It stands within reason that even though a person may ascend, the true nature of their soul remains. If unable to overcome that nature and be better than it still stands that it can resurface. This makes a Kyrian not be impartial or able to perform their duty.
    Let’s take Arthas for example. You can’t take Arthas, send him to Bastion and then mind wipe him to become a Kyrian. His corrupted soul will still remain, and even though his mind has been erased, the evil taint upon him would still be able to corrupt him again, possibly even making him worse than Uther.
    Which sounds terribly convoluted and unnecessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Considering quest text is part of the story then yes, it absolutely is the fault of the players.
    When it comes to the story, I give players a pass for not knowing certain things IF it happens in the books, as that’s a separate entertainment medium. In my opinion, anything that happens in the books should also be included in game (obviously condensed) or not considered as canon.
    That aside, anything that happens in game is all on the players to know, not to gloss over and then complain Blizz sucks at storytelling.
    Ten years ago I would've agreed with you, but the production value nowadays with WoW has Blizzard creating in game cutscenes, rendered cinematics, simple voice acting and so much more, that there really isn't an excuse not to be able to tell a cohesive story without quest text.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Ten years ago I would've agreed with you, but the production value nowadays with WoW has Blizzard creating in game cutscenes, rendered cinematics, simple voice acting and so much more, that there really isn't an excuse not to be able to tell a cohesive story without quest text.
    Especially when FF14 and ESO are doing just fine with a minimum of quest text. If those games, that presumably have just a fraction of WoW's players, can do with some neat production value, so should WoW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It is official
    I giggled.

    "And remember also that, as you’ll see, that there are many characters in the Shadowlands when they refer to time, they usually say that time is not a construct of Death. Time and Death are not related. "

    Danuser is even wrong with the very content of his own story. Countless NPCs do talk about Time, centuries, millenia, eons.
    Time do affect the SL, it is fact - if not in durations, at least as causality, sequencing.
    Souls arrive from mortal planes at a certain point, at a certain rate, at a certain order, at a certain time - to begin with.

    So the whole stuff of pretending that the Plane of Death is "chemically pure Death" with NO room for any Order is bullshit.

    Look, the Kyrians are just the incarnation of Order, they even provide full Arcane (Order) skills!
    On the other hand Sylvarden's link with Nature (thus Life) is already stated. Venthyrs are full of Shadow magic.

    Each realm of SL is ordered and tainted with other energies than Death. The In-Between is what this ocean of souls should look like without Order nor Time.
    So I'd explain the 4 (or 6) playable realms as enclaves of order into the ocean of shapeless souls. Somehow the inconsistencies of the writers would be fixed this way - but would they?!


    Yet that keeps some other plot holes that seem bigged to me than OP' ones.

    - Maldraxxus. How can there even be actual FLESH and BONES, and poisons and so on, in a plane of SOULS?

    - Nathreza. [SPOILERS] In a book in Revendreth, we learn the Master created the agents of death that are clearly the Dreadlords. So nathrezim are now retconned as creatures of Denathrius and Death, not born in the Twisting Nether as we were told. Fine, I found it fits quite well to this race after all. But now how can they justify the homeworld Nathreza in Legion's lore? (I have my headcanon about it but I bet they just don't even have an explanation to offer.)

    - Shadowlands as seen in Chronicles. I guess these damn books are not relevant any more regarding Retail Canon lol.
    But Shadowlands were a mirror of the Emerald Dream, both a reflect of Mortal Plane, Decay-side of the Elements bound to The Undead while the ED was Spirit-side bound to the Wild Gods. Not the "plane of Death".

    - Shadowlands as seen in WotLK. You know that Salanar's quest as a new DK. Does not resemble nowadays' Shadowlands at all, does it? Obviously, it was a realm of actual Shadows (like the flavor of the old Shadow Priest spec (RIP) before all that silly retcon about the Void and the Old Gods as minions aside from the Death).

    - Shadow Realm as seen in BC and WoD. Remember, the realm of the Veiled Arakkoa: Terokk in BC and Anzu in WoD. Same problem, but okay, a slightly different name.

    - Why naming it Shadowlands in the first place? if it has nothing to do with the Shadow aka (as for now) the Void?!

    In Classic universe, it made sense because Shadow was encompassing Void, Death and even Fel.
    But Retail's Chronicles-driven stuff wrecked that and separated all three in original cosmic forces. Full messed-up.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Cough View Post
    I was just wondering how bolvar is raising death knights (I.e Allied races) if every soul is stuck in the Maw

    Didnt every soul go straight into the maw after Sylvanas made the pact with the jailer/Helya in legion? Does Bolvar have the ability to just pull people out of the shadowlands at command? What happened to no one escapes the maw

    Also, doesent technically all death knights and undead remember the shadowlands? Why is it being treated as a mystery?

    The Entire Sylvanas Jailer plot just doesen't make sense to me. So the Jailer draws souls from the entire universe, but where exactly does Sylvanas fit in? If millions/Billions are dying every day across the stars, what kind of significance does burning teldrassil even have? Hundreds of thousand lives lost is basically a drop in the ocean compared to the billions across the star. Not to talk about Old gods and burning legion battling it out and burning/corrupting worlds killing further millions. Teldrassil just seems so insignifcant on a galactic scale, how in the world was that enough to break the jailer free?

    Speaking of souls, then what are wisps or any ghosts for that matter? Have they escaped the shadowlands? The Elven spirits in dire maul or the ghosts of Karazhan, has there been any explaination?

    ty
    How do you create Death Knights in general?

    When the four horsemen were created, had they already moved on to the Shadowlands? Was Nazgrim in Maldraxxus and did the player character rip him out of there? It's a weird concept in general when you have something like the Shadowlands.

    Like what if you are already a Kyrian and have ascended. Can someone pull your soul back into your corpse?

    How did Uther appear at his tomb?

  11. #231
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why? If your memories are going to be erased, it doesn’t matter what were you in your past life, since basically you are back to a tabula rasa state. The mindwipe isn't optional anyway.
    Why dosen't the Arbiter just wipe all brains of souls destined for Bastion? I think that would make the process much easier

    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why? If your memories are going to be erased, it doesn’t matter what were you in your past life, since basically you are back to a tabula rasa state. The mindwipe isn't optional anyway.
    They aren't back to being a clean slate, the only memories that are removed are those that cause emotional connections to their previous life, as well as traumatic memories. So they would still remember their skills and their mindset would still be as it was in life, just supported by their afterlife experiences, instead of life ones. As the Archon says and Devos herself doesn't deny, they still remembers the lessons, even if she doesn't remember who taught them, a rather superfluous quality.

    People who say that they are the sum of their memories don't understand how wrong they are. When memories are recalled they aren't like a film reel that objectively portrays what happened, they are an interpretation of a play, played by new actors every time with a new director interpreting the script. And when they are committed back to memory, instead of putting the original script back, there's a writer in the audience who transcribes the play he saw, and that writing becomes the script for the next time the play is staged. Even for people with eidetic memory it's the same, it's just that their writer meticulously writes down every detail in the script, which is then reproduced over and over through different reconstructions.

    In other words, memories of the past life are pointless if they don't do anything, and are actively harmful to the kyrian duties if they ever cloud their judgement.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Cough View Post
    I was just wondering how bolvar is raising death knights (I.e Allied races) if every soul is stuck in the Maw

    Didnt every soul go straight into the maw after Sylvanas made the pact with the jailer/Helya in legion? Does Bolvar have the ability to just pull people out of the shadowlands at command? What happened to no one escapes the maw

    Also, doesent technically all death knights and undead remember the shadowlands? Why is it being treated as a mystery?

    The Entire Sylvanas Jailer plot just doesen't make sense to me. So the Jailer draws souls from the entire universe, but where exactly does Sylvanas fit in? If millions/Billions are dying every day across the stars, what kind of significance does burning teldrassil even have? Hundreds of thousand lives lost is basically a drop in the ocean compared to the billions across the star.
    The machine of death was broken, some time after Ursoc's death in the Emerald Nightmare, according to interviews from Blizzard. The death knights do not seem to remember their time in the Shadowlands, at least not very clearly. And you are forgetting that thousands of worlds have already been destroyed by the cosmic conflict anyway. Azeroth is likely one of the very few surviving ones left in existence.

  14. #234
    Just did the Kleia soulbinding quest... and omg is she an idiot...

    How do they not know, how do we not tell them that Ben isn't going to some other realm but the maw??

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Just did the Kleia soulbinding quest... and omg is she an idiot...

    How do they not know, how do we not tell them that Ben isn't going to some other realm but the maw??
    When I was doing the quest, I just kept thinking "Why am I not bringing up what's about to happen to this man?" Moreover, why are the Kyrian not, you know, putting them somewhere that's not the Maw? They're ferrying the souls to Oribos, the Arbiter is broken, why not move them somewhere else?
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    When I was doing the quest, I just kept thinking "Why am I not bringing up what's about to happen to this man?" Moreover, why are the Kyrian not, you know, putting them somewhere that's not the Maw? They're ferrying the souls to Oribos, the Arbiter is broken, why not move them somewhere else?
    Because their whole reason for existence is to ferry souls into the Shadowlands, nothing else, and they've never done anything else.

    They do not have the omniscience of the Arbiter. They don't know where a soul belongs. When they bypassed the Arbiter to put Arthas into the Maw, look how that turned out. The souls have to go somewhere.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because their whole reason for existence is to ferry souls into the Shadowlands, nothing else, and they've never done anything else.

    They do not have the omniscience of the Arbiter. They don't know where a soul belongs. When they bypassed the Arbiter to put Arthas into the Maw, look how that turned out. The souls have to go somewhere.
    I'm not suggesting they deliver them to any of the realms of death for permanent residence, but you would assume it would be possible for temporary holdings to be established until the problem is resolved. It's also a little strange that the Kyrians, who are intelligent and show self motivation in Bastion, would simply deliver souls directly to Zovaal rather than taking some initiative. It essentially means that the Kyrians, regardless of affiliation, are complicit with the Jailer's plans.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    When I was doing the quest, I just kept thinking "Why am I not bringing up what's about to happen to this man?" Moreover, why are the Kyrian not, you know, putting them somewhere that's not the Maw? They're ferrying the souls to Oribos, the Arbiter is broken, why not move them somewhere else?
    I think part of the problem is that they don't have any holding place for souls awaiting judgment, so there is no "somewhere else" to move them. They also seem to have an issue with dedication to rigid hierachies, which likely goes all the way up to Kyrestia. The Arbiter's helpers in Oribos show similar tendencies.

  19. #239
    I just did Torghast and got Meatball as a follower, when did he die in BFA? @_@

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    I just did Torghast and got Meatball as a follower, when did he die in BFA? @_@
    Given that he's a non-spirit Gnoll still, i'm not certain he even did. Though that just brings up the question of what he was doing in the Maw.

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