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  1. #41
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    WoW's lore is so unbelievably jarring. I never really got into it, but that's exactly because there are a thousand different versions of the same thing.

    Retcons are a shameful last resort for a writer. I know because I am a writer myself. It feels wrong to send out a retcon because your own failure at conveying a convincing message is reflected in it.

    WoW is not, and will never be, a sound piece of literature, but by now it's probably more retcon than plot. They always try to bite more than they can chew and then they must do compromises to keep the boat floating.

    Also, yes, the Scourge IS cheapened when it gets retconned out of its merits.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The fact that Maldraxxus has spider people when the nerubrians are the void affiliated creations of the old gods is all that needs to be said honestly. There is no defence or explanation for this beyond "'member the scourge?"

    Maldraxxus is literally nothing but PR mandated naked nostalgia bait and nothing else.


    You got a source for that? Because World of Warcraft seems to disagree with you.


    And no one is saying they can't? What blizzard can or cannot do with their own IP it entirely disconnected with the quality of their writing or it's internal consistency.
    I've looked it up and it seems you are at least partially right right, though the book you link to is hardly authoritative on such matters as it is from a human perspective pre-WotLK.

    But consider the following: "Blizzard representatives have stated that they feel the connection between Yogg-Saron and the Lich King ended up being poorly expressed in-game,[18] but added that it "had a lot to do with the ability for mortals to become corrupted.""
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Yogg-Saron

    Add to that the immunity of the Nerubians to both plague and domination, his creation of the curse of flesh in the first place, Yogg-Saron being the "other" source of green glow, his direct wielding of plagues in combat, and his presence all throughout Northrend and general manipulation of the scourge.

    It's by no means proof i'll admit, but most sources on other, well, sources of the plague are remarkably dated and notably nonspecific. "From the frozen throne" is open for much interpretation given that it effectively crashlanded on top of a glacier infested with Yogg-Saron's influence and minions, which curiously left him alone in his early days.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Scourge architecture was never original, they got it from the Nerubians. And whether the Nerubians or the Maldraxxians had it first is perhaps not so clear yet, as i seem to recall the devs angling for that discussion particularly.
    In the slew of Shadowlands interviews, I believe it was implied that the Nerubians may have been inspired by the powers of Death, though this was never explicitly stated (i.e.: they said that Death has had influence on Azeroth prior, and we may explore how Nerubians developed their architecture).

    Likewise the plague was something the Lich King encountered in the original lore (in WotLK it was implied that Yogg-Saron created it i seem to recall), not something he made.
    I don't recall this ever being the case. The original lore had Ner'zhul conjuring it from within the Frozen Throne, essentially willing it into existence. Current lore would imply that this is likely a creation of the House of Plagues. The only link between the Scourge and Yogg-saron that was ever really shown to exist was that the Scourge were capable of using Saronite without falling to the madness that afflicted mortals, which is evident in the Icecrown quests revolving around the Saronite mines in which the living slaves were going mad, subjected to the whispers, and the undead were keeping them in line with no apparent deficiencies. Every other link between them was speculative.

    Death knights too predate the Lich King, being first created by orcish warlocks.
    It's different kinds of Death Knights, their only shared traits are that they are both (1) undead and (2) share a name.

    Also his val'kyr are likely from Odyn/Helya, who in turn got them from Bastion of course, but the point is: we already knew of those.
    In places like Utgarde Pinnacle, we see the Lich King trivially make Val'kyr, such as the case of Svala Sorrowgrave. Other instances of him creating Val'kyr are in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, I believe.

    Gargoyles and obsidian destroyers (wc3) are likely originally related to the nerubians/corrupted titanic creatures as well.
    There does not seem to be any instance in which the Scourge has leveraged Titan technology as far as I am aware; however, it is likely that they are something made using knowledge of Revendreth's stoneborn.

    And magicians seeking to escape their mortality likely predate the Lich King as well (how would he be king of the liches if no liches existed beforehand? He'd just be "The Lich").
    As to the san'layn: apparantly there are vrykul vampires that predate them.
    It should be said that the Lich King is not a lich, nor is he the de facto king of liches. It's just a name.
    Other than that, these examples are too abstract to have any bearing on whether the Scourge is original. It would be similar to saying that the Legion is unoriginal because they use portals, which are ubiquitous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    it cheapens the original things like scourge and LK, and thats whats pissing people off.
    It's not just the Lich King, it cheapens a lot of the major Scourge characters too. Take Kel'thuzad, for example. Kel'thuzad was a tragic villain because he never wanted to become what he did. He only founded the Cult of the Damned because (1) the Kirin Tor kicked him out and (2) he was strongarmed into doing so under threat of having his free will removed. Now, from what we can tell, he's become a self motivated villain with no qualms in joining the Jailor in causing damage throughout the cosmology, let alone just Azeroth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I mean it makes sense really if the helm of domination was stolen and used by the burning crusade. It's not forced, you're just being a bit narrow in your thinking.
    The implication that the Nathrezim, who we have reason to think are not demons but are instead native to the Shadowlands, gave Kil'jaeden the armour is that the forces of Death are the master manipulators which created the Lich King. This would mean that many forces that have been the major players almost 20 years, such as Sargeras and his Legion, are just pawns of the forces of Death for no reason other than to try and make the new force appealing to players.
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  4. #44
    Brewmaster Jawless Jones's Avatar
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    well you see, blizzards current writers won't be satisfied until everything you liked about WoW and warcrafts lore has been ruined by them.

    either that or they spend too much time browsing twitter and not enough time doing their actual jobs, so they just co-opt the old stuff to pad out their garbage efforts
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    like i said think about it, a bunch of corpses stuck in Northrend for a few decades, how could they possibly develop all those things? an entire school of magic, a unique architectural style, bio weapons, abomination factories

    did Nerzhul come up with all that stuff while he was traped in ice? or did a couple of madmen from Cult of the Damn figure it all out?

    the assumed old lore never made any sense as well, so it cheapens nothing
    That wasn't the old lore though, and it wasn't assumed. It was directly stated that the architecture of the Scourge took it's inspiration from that of the Nerubians - One of the many kingdoms which was conquered BY the Scourge. Which makes sense, an undead kingdom built via the inspirations of the kingdom they conquered.

    Nobody "figured it out." The creatures who died and were raised as undead, used the knowledge they already had to build. That's why it made sense. Now, that's not the case - Arthas and Ner'zhul "saw the Shadowlands" and instead of using architecture form their dead and conquered civilizations, they mirrored the Shadowlands for... reasons.

    It definitely cheapens the impact.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Krowth View Post
    So apparently Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't have a single original bone in their bodies and just copypasted everything they saw in the Shadowlands into Azeroth.

    Plagues, Liches, abominations, death knights etc from Maldraxxus.
    Val'kyr from Bastion.
    San'Layn and gargoyles from Revendreth.

    Hell even the architecture is taken from Maldraxxus and the Maw. This makes the scourge feel rather cheap, I don't like it.
    You have it backwards. Shadowlands is a ripoff of the Scourge. It's created by creative bankrupt devs that can only copy existing work.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Don't think this is a retcon just an expanding on known lore.

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    I mean it makes sense really if the helm of domination was stolen and used by the burning crusade. It's not forced, you're just being a bit narrow in your thinking.
    You didn't respond to anything I've said. The only thing narrow here is Blizz's imagination.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Honestly, that's one of the worst parts of this expansion. See the signature.

    One of the better things in the Warcraft Universe got demolished in favor of... this. Wow, thanks "Baroness" Draka, you're so much more compelling that Naxxramas & Kel'thuzad.
    Yeah I feel you man. Ever since I saw the shadowlands cinematic it felt like blizzard decided to shit all over my favorite WC3 and Wotlk memories.
    The 3 dh spec is increíble.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post

    It's extra stupid to me because abominations looked the way they did only because they were corpses sewn together. The Scourge had buildings where they assembled various constructs from flesh. Bodies decay, meat falls off the bones etc, perfectly logical. It wasn't an aesthetic, there was valid reason they looked like that.

    Now however, it turns out the abominations exist in the fucking afterlife. Where decay shouldn't even exist as a concept. All those skeletons and abominations are just an aesthetic without any logic behind it. They just wanted to do another Scourge zone. It takes me right out of the story because it's so forced.
    Ye Maldraxxus makes no sense in general. Why is everyone a skeleton? How are abos made if everyone is a soul? How does necromancy work if according to Blizz you die for real if you die in the Shadowlands? Why is there an alchemist faction in the warriors afterlife?

    So many questions that will probably never get answered

  10. #50
    damn, feels good to see so many people, except the usual die-hard blizz simps, actually calling out the bullshit that SL lore and especially maldraxxus/the jailer is

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It should be said that the Lich King is not a lich, nor is he the de facto king of liches. It's just a name.
    Other than that, these examples are too abstract to have any bearing on whether the Scourge is original. It would be similar to saying that the Legion is unoriginal because they use portals, which are ubiquitous.
    actually, that name was correct at the time.
    the name "lich king" was given to ner'zhul because he basically became a lich, his soul was bound to a phylactery (the helm+armour), and his orcish followers became lich servants, making him the lich king

    it wasnt until WotLk came around that blizz made it canon that a mere undead human could become the single Lk, when it was a "spectral entity of unfathomable power" (ner'zhul) before, that used an undead body (arthas body) at the end of WC3
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-11-29 at 12:44 AM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    actually, that name was correct at the time.
    the name "lich king" was given to ner'zhul because he basically became a lich, his soul was bound to a phylactery (the helm+armour), and his orcish followers became lich servants, making him the lich king

    it wasnt until WotLk came around that blizz made it canon that a mere undead human could become the single Lk, when it was a "spectral entity of unfathomable power" (ner'zhul) before, that used an undead body (arthas body) at the end of WC3
    Ner'zhul was never a lich. His soul was bound to the helm, but this is markedly different from a liches phylactery which serves a specific purpose; it binds the soul to an object to ensure the soul does not pass into the Shadowlands on destruction of their physical forms and allows for the reconstitution of those forms. Any broader definition which would define Ner'zhul - or the Lich King, in general - as a lich would likely also encompass characters like Thal'kiel (Demonology Warlock Artifact; Skull of the Man'ari) or Natrezaar (Blood DK Artifact; Maw of the Damned) because their souls are also bound to objects. This could also be expanded to every single soul we see in Torghast that is partially bound to pieces of armor.
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