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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Sacrifice over individuality, a concept that is the antithesis to modern political correctness, even though it means no inherent evil for the community as a whole.
    Sacrifice purely for the greater good saying individuality is bad is basically the mindset of Mao/Pol Pot Communism.

  2. #22
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    That is the whole point of the campaign. Also: Only peopel with a high sense of honor, selflessness and willingness to serv for the greater good are send there.
    They don't just roll a dice to where you go in your afterlive. But i guess you have too read the story for it and i am no going to tell it to you. It is there in the game.

    And a whole lot more we don't know yet.
    They don't choose it, and very obviously not everyone wants it or passes the test - what happens when they say 'screw this'? Reduced the anima? Cast to the Maw?

  3. #23
    None of the covenants are inherently good or evil. They all have their own positives or flaws. The Kyrians may seem harsh with their memory wiping, but you are still your own person, and it's a sacrifice one makes in order to make the Shadowlands are more balanced place, as Kyrians are to show no biased to the new souls that are ferried.

    Necrolords act as the vanguard of the whole realm, and fill their role with honor. But as you can see, the necrolord "afterlife" can make one become obsessed with war, and just fight for the sake of fighting with no reason.

    Night Fae care about preserving the cycle, which is both their main positive and negative. They do what is necessary to keep their realm running, but they also appear to compromise a ton, which ironically is causing their cycle to break.

    Venthyr keep their memories as it is a part of their identity of being a venthyr. Their goal is to take souls that appear to have led evil lifestyles, but still have some good traits in them. The venthyr attempt to strip down their pride, greed, etc. down to what is good inside that soul, and in doing so, redeem them so that they may do the same. It appears to be a nice reward for the new venthyr, but as you can tell, many of them can still be corrupted by greed.

    So at the surface level, none of the covenants are really good or evil, they simply all just serve the Shadowlands to keep order in the realm.

  4. #24
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Bastion is still a part of hell, it isn't exactly a heaven. By being mind-wiped the dead are literally denied a paradise afterlife which sounds like a very special hell indeed. Without this one characterization, it's an implication-free paradise where everything is great.
    Hence my understanding that the Shadowlands are just representations of circles of hell.

  5. #25
    I picked Kyrian, the campaign is playing out about how you would expect. They aren't evil I would say they are stuck in a rut with blinders on because they've been doing the same thing for fuck only knows how many millions of years and it's never screwed with them before so anything that goes against it is seen as ludicrous. Hell the entire vibe of the storyline with them revolves around their blind dedication to 'the path', it's been said already but if you play through the Spires of Ascension dungeon and stay a little bit after for the roleplay text from the Archon it's clear that loosening some of the adherence to the rules is probably on its way. But no they aren't really evil in my opinion. I'm guessing all the covenants will have more story added in future patches, maybe it'll come up then.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmeebs View Post
    Sacrifice purely for the greater good saying individuality is bad is basically the mindset of Mao/Pol Pot Communism.
    Of course there should be an objective advantage, not just propaganda.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Hence my understanding that the Shadowlands are just representations of circles of hell.
    Except the Shadowlands has infinite afterlives and can create new realms instantly for just a single person if that is needed.

    Most likely there are an infinite amount of afterlives almost exactly like Bastion, except the inhabitants don't do much of anything except enjoy their afterlife.

    While it is never stated outright there is heavy implications that the 4 afterlives we have covenants in are places where souls that have a purpose stay. The souls that go to Revendreth are sent back to the Arbiter after their penance unless they want to stay. The souls in Maldraxxus are those that love war and want to help people using that gift, and Bastion is where the truly selfless go. The only true outlier is Ardenweald where we do indeed see that the animal spirits mostly just lounge around while the Satyrs and such do all the real work..
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #28
    My take:

    People only defend Kyrians because they have the "good guys" badge slapped on. They defend them because they're supposed to. The game frames them as flawed but ultimately in the right, "sure, the mind-wiping is weird, but they're the good guys so it's fine". If you changed their aesthetic to more mean-looking, and had important NPCs tell you in the beginning that they're bad and need to be defeated but left everything else the same, no one would blink an eye. The framing is everything.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    My take:

    People only defend Kyrians because they have the "good guys" badge slapped on. They defend them because they're supposed to. The game frames them as flawed but ultimately in the right, "sure, the mind-wiping is weird, but they're the good guys so it's fine". If you changed their aesthetic to more mean-looking, and had important NPCs tell you in the beginning that they're bad and need to be defeated but left everything else the same, no one would blink an eye. The framing is everything.
    Well there is also the fact that the Forsworn are horribly hypocrites who decided to ally themselves with the Jailer to send all souls to the Maw despite their reason for defecting being that they were horrified by how evil he was.

    In essence the Forsworn come across as incredibly selfish and stupid, and while it is true that people probably defend the Kyrian more because they are framed as good it isnt as simple as just swapping the color palettes and telling us they are evil, you would need to rewrite most of their story to make it work.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #30
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Except the Shadowlands has infinite afterlives and can create new realms instantly for just a single person if that is needed.

    Most likely there are an infinite amount of afterlives almost exactly like Bastion, except the inhabitants don't do much of anything except enjoy their afterlife.

    While it is never stated outright there is heavy implications that the 4 afterlives we have covenants in are places where souls that have a purpose stay. The souls that go to Revendreth are sent back to the Arbiter after their penance unless they want to stay. The souls in Maldraxxus are those that love war and want to help people using that gift, and Bastion is where the truly selfless go. The only true outlier is Ardenweald where we do indeed see that the animal spirits mostly just lounge around while the Satyrs and such do all the real work..
    That doesn’t tell me what happens to those who reject it or fail the tests.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

    I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.
    Did you do the quests in Bastion? They explain why Kyrians need to lose their memories in order to make them non-judgmental and neutral. It is their job to ferry the souls to Shadowlands. If they were judgmental and biased then they may ignore the Arbiter's decision.
    "Huh? You were a rapist in life? And the Arbiter wants to send you to Revendreth to atone? Screw that! I'm gonna drop you into the Maw myself!" This is basically what Devos did to Arthas. We need justice systems to be as neutral and unbiased as possible. Deovs and the Forsworn get to keep some of their memories, and they're easily manipulated and influenced by the Jailer's promises of a better future.

  12. #32
    Pit Lord Omians's Avatar
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    well its not like their memories are gone forever. it was stated in the starting quests they all Kyrian memories were stored in the archives. after they have their talk they will probably offer Kyrians to have their old Memories back. they may just have to make Robots do the Ferrying. though that would probably take up a ton more anima
    Omians- 60 Troll Enhancement shaman, Emerald Dream

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorri View Post
    Did you do the quests in Bastion? They explain why Kyrians need to lose their memories in order to make them non-judgmental and neutral. It is their job to ferry the souls to Shadowlands. If they were judgmental and biased then they may ignore the Arbiter's decision.
    "Huh? You were a rapist in life? And the Arbiter wants to send you to Revendreth to atone? Screw that! I'm gonna drop you into the Maw myself!" This is basically what Devos did to Arthas. We need justice systems to be as neutral and unbiased as possible. Deovs and the Forsworn get to keep some of their memories, and they're easily manipulated and influenced by the Jailer's promises of a better future.
    Except they retain their moral compass and are capable of bearing a grudge against a soul, as Devos herself showed. Their memories are irrelevant. "They might disagre with the Arbiter, better wipe their memories"- geee then maybe the Arbiter is not as infallible as they say.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    Sounds like brainwashing to me. Memories help make who you are.
    This isn't about the Kyrians. It clearly says during the first campaign that they do it so they aren't biased against the souls they're supposed to carry. Do people even listen/read the story?

    There's infinite realms in the shadowlands. They wipe their memories so they can do their duty to all the rest of the souls fairly. They still have personalities which they grow after, that's why it takes them centuries to ascend into beings that ferry the souls. I think a few centuries is more than enough to grow a new personality. They make a small sacrifice so the INFINITE realms live the afterlife they deserve.

  15. #35
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with the Kyrian isn’t the memory erasing, so much as the lack of free will to undergo it.

    They literally force you to become a generic blue human, or snuff out your existence.
    That’s the issue for me.

    I totally get the necessity of being impartial and that memories might make that impossible, but deleting the people who just want to remember their families is incredibly shitty.
    Last edited by Villager720; 2020-11-29 at 01:41 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Except they retain their moral compass and are capable of bearing a grudge against a soul, as Devos herself showed. Their memories are irrelevant. "They might disagre with the Arbiter, better wipe their memories"- geee then maybe the Arbiter is not as infallible as they say.
    Devos' case was very exceptional. She was right that the path is flawed, but joining the Jailer was a stupid move. The Archon begins to realize that Bastion needs to change after you kill Devos in a dungeon. It may lead to Kyrians being allowed to keep their memories.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmeebs View Post
    Sacrifice purely for the greater good saying individuality is bad is basically the mindset of Mao/Pol Pot Communism.
    Infinity is bigger in scale compared to just Bastion. That's like needing a small village to make a sacrifice so the rest of the solar system can live well, and then someone saying "it isn't right" so it gets changed and then the rest of the solar system implodes.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    My biggest issue with the Kyrian isn’t the memory erasing, so much as the lack of free will to undergo it.

    They literally force you to become a generic blue human, or snuff out your existence.
    That’s the issue for me.

    I totally get the necessity of being impartial and that memories might make that impossible, but deleting the people who just want to remember their families is incredibly shitty.
    Then really your issue isn't with the kyrians but with the arbiter. The arbiter knows that souls sent to bastion are going to be wiped, if a soul that wants to remember their families above all else gets sent there then thats on her.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That doesn’t tell me what happens to those who reject it or fail the tests.
    Those that fail or do not want to take up the path are sent to other covenants. Uther wasn't able to ascend despite wanting to, and they even considered looking for another covenant for him to join.

    You see, souls that are selected for Bastion are people that lead very dutybound lives and what the path entails isn't kept secret. They know what they're signing up for, and the transition is supposed to be straightforward.

    The reason why we see so many recruits struggle is because anima starvation is causing massive emotional unbalance. Because this is an unprecedented situation and they don't know how to handle it, the instructors simply push their recruits to try again and again. This situation made use of by the agents of the Jailer, by planting the seeds of doubt in these emotionally distressed souls.

    The same happened with Uther. His situation was unique and despite him wanting to take up the path, it failed and they simply kept pushing him to try again and again because they didn't know any better. Davos, leader of the foresworn, finds out that Uther's situation is unique and decides that the road the path isn't perfect. So, she reasons that the entire concept of unbiased collectors of souls should be abolished and they should be judge, jury and executioners of the afterlife. She then whispers doubt into the ear of a clearly emotionally unbalanced Uther to dispose of Arthas's soul.
    Last edited by Elkas; 2020-11-29 at 02:27 AM.

  20. #40
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikha View Post
    Then really your issue isn't with the kyrians but with the arbiter. The arbiter knows that souls sent to bastion are going to be wiped, if a soul that wants to remember their families above all else gets sent there then thats on her.
    I’ll allow it.

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