Does the Kyrian covenant story make them any less horrendous?

[De Lupe]

The souls who go to the Shdaowlands are people who would gladly give up their lives (both their flesh lives and their identities) for the greater good. Many (Most?) of them did, ala Uther.

If you don't like that idea then congratulations. You are not worthy of Bastion and will never have to worry about it. The people who are compatible with it are fine with it.

[VinceVega]

They don't choose it, and very obviously not everyone wants it or passes the test - what happens when they say 'screw this'? Reduced the anima? Cast to the Maw?

As far as the stroy goes they can apparantly go on their way. And leave bastion even. See Uther. Went to the maw. They do NOT seem to be enslaved.

You get the afterlive that fits you most. Doesn't mean it is paradise where verything works out for the better forever. Never was said. Not in Bastion, Maldraxxus, Revendreth or even Ardenweald.

[God Save The King]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people

Bastion's life is forced on no one. It's an active choice and aspirants can choose to leave if the strain is too much, which we see a few do throughout the story. The few selected for Bastion are those who lead lives of honor and followed a code. If we were to use an alignment chart, they'd be Lawful Good. They understand what they're going in to and what it entails. Other covenants are an option if they cannot ascend and follow the path. It's not some great secret that aspirants are giving up who they are to preserve the balance and strength of the Shadowlands.

What is locked away are your memories. Your personality does not deeply change. That might not make sense IRL but that's how Bastion works.

I think it's weird and it's certainly not a life I'd ever sign up for, but I can imagine it appealing to a handful of people. Remember the 4 realms of the Shadowlands we see are those having active issues due to the interference of the Jailer. There are thousands and thousands of realms. Bastion would likely make up a tiny part of it, only enough to transport souls to their destined realm.

If you don't like it, that's fine, it's just not for you. No one would force you to do it. But it's insulting to the people who sacrificed much to be impartial elements of the Shadowlands to preserve its integrity. Uther is evidence of what happens when people don't walk the path.

[Cosmic Janitor]

None of the afterlives are remotely "heavenly" in the general sense in WoW. Heck even in christianty the current idea of heaven is a construct of the times for everything to be better, a couple hundred years ago the idea was essentially that you get to heaven and your new job is to praise god all day long, pretty much what souls do in the troll afterlife. The very fact that your not-so-immortal soul can perish in the afterlife (and apparently regularily does) and then gets absorbed into the realm and vanishes forever should be enough to tell you that this is a second live with many failngs.

I mean just look at what kind of afterlives we get, one where they torture everyone until they are "good enough" so they can torture others to do the same, one where they train you to be a delivery guy and and one where you become a rotting corpse to be forever ground in the machines of war until your parts get recycled by a bunch of morons (aka house of constructs). The only exception here is ardenweald, but that one is a bit complicated since the purpose is to nurture souls of the wild until they can be reborn and send back or you become a low tier caretaker if you are just affiliated with these spirits. I think most of them are closer to food tbh. It also still has a strong "survival of the fittest" theme.

[Rendark]

This isn't about the Kyrians. It clearly says during the first campaign that they do it so they aren't biased against the souls they're supposed to carry. Do people even listen/read the story?

There's infinite realms in the shadowlands. They wipe their memories so they can do their duty to all the rest of the souls fairly. They still have personalities which they grow after, that's why it takes them centuries to ascend into beings that ferry the souls. I think a few centuries is more than enough to grow a new personality. They make a small sacrifice so the INFINITE realms live the afterlife they deserve.

Doesn't matter why they do it. I rather not be mind raped.

[Imperator4321]

None of the afterlives are remotely "heavenly" in the general sense in WoW. Heck even in christianty the current idea of heaven is a construct of the times for everything to be better, a couple hundred years ago the idea was essentially that you get to heaven and your new job is to praise god all day long, pretty much what souls do in the troll afterlife. The very fact that your not-so-immortal soul can perish in the afterlife (and apparently regularily does) and then gets absorbed into the realm and vanishes forever should be enough to tell you that this is a second live with many failngs.

I mean just look at what kind of afterlives we get, one where they torture everyone until they are "good enough" so they can torture others to do the same, one where they train you to be a delivery guy and and one where you become a rotting corpse to be forever ground in the machines of war until your parts get recycled by a bunch of morons (aka house of constructs). The only exception here is ardenweald, but that one is a bit complicated since the purpose is to nurture souls of the wild until they can be reborn and send back or you become a low tier caretaker if you are just affiliated with these spirits. I think most of them are closer to food tbh. It also still has a strong "survival of the fittest" theme.

Those are only the big four afterlives, theres countless ones, Revendreth, Maldraxxus, Bastion and Ardenweald are the just the ones that play the most role in the Shadowlands system, Bastion brings souls to the arbiter, Maldraxxus defends the shadowlands from external threats, Ardenweald tends to the spirits of nature and Revendreth redeems souls would otherwise be sent to the maw.

[Daffan]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

It's a good society

I also bet there are no welfare cheats

Doesn't matter why they do it. I rather not be mind raped.

Than go to da evil place and stop complaining'

[Rendark]

Than go to da evil place and stop complaining'

Why would i help the evil Kyrian?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Those are only the big four afterlives, theres countless ones, Revendreth, Maldraxxus, Bastion and Ardenweald are the just the ones that play the most role in the Shadowlands system, Bastion brings souls to the arbiter, Maldraxxus defends the shadowlands from external threats, Ardenweald tends to the spirits of nature and Revendreth redeems souls would otherwise be sent to the maw.

Not sure what point you are trying to make? I know all that hogwash.

As for endless: Yeah yeah, countless ones. Sure. If I had to guess their "infinite" being the 4 year old's concept of infinite, meaning any number bigger than 3. Here is the thing, from what we've seen the SL can't support a true infinite universe. That starts with THE people ferrying souls being rather finite to begin with and ends with the logistics of the shadowlands all hinging on the bit of anima that mortal souls drag in the door. It's a nice concept for the story and gives the author alot of room, but if you think i through you run into problems quickly. While I'm sure the patches will add realms with surprising relevance - only to us of course - out the infinite number, everything down to Oribos is conveniently build to support exactly those 4. Blizzard didn't even bother to put in a few more portals around Oribos, when they should have littered the skybox with those . There is also something to be said about Ardenweald being the odd one out and practically being a waste of anima on the system, but that would lead too far.

Anyway, rant aside, the concept of the anima economy of the shadowlands makes it highly unlikely that the other realms are all sunshine and rainbows either and again the concept of absolute death exists in the shadowlands. That fact alone excludes concepts of paradise other than walled gardens that require someone to oversee them, which in turn begs the question why someone would exert that much effort for a couple of souls, the big 4 certainly have a utalitarian approach to it and make it work because of it.

[LordVargK]

I like them that way... Finally an opportunity to join a cult. Also their path worked for many ten thousands of cycles, until the jailor inspired a rebel army.

[Varjo410]

So not acting purely in your own self interests but in service of a greater purpose being the driving force behind your "existance" is seen is offensive & slavery now?
Yup that sums up 2020 quite nicely.

[LordVargK]

That doesn’t tell me what happens to those who reject it or fail the tests.

I imagine the same as with the souls, that have atoned for their sins in Revendreth. In my understanding they get send to other realms of the Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

So not acting purely in your own self interests but in service of a greater purpose being the driving force behind your "existance" is seen is offensive & slavery now?
Yup that sums up 2020 quite nicely.

I mean, for any person that grew up in and was influenced by a individualistic and liberal society it has to seem that way. Of course that disregards, that Freedom does not exist in Warcraft. There is no choice for the common peasant; you live in feudalism and work for your lord. Or serve your god/cosmic force. Only very few warcraft characters are actually free, and those probably won't get send to Bastion.

[korijenkins]

What people don't want to understand is that : it is DEATH! Dead things have no choice! Their choices are made by death dealers like Kyrians or Necrolords and the like. They didn't even have choice in life as to how they would die, what makes you think that they would have choice after death? Sylavanas is blindly believing that Jailer is trying to give everyone choice but we all know how it is going to end up. Things with power never allow weaker things to have actual meaningful choices. That is what it is. All in all, whether it is living or dead, they have no choice about how they are treated in life and death! Period!

I think Sylvanas' motivations are selfish. At least, they should be, if writing was consistent. Ideal writing would be: Sylvanas is selfish (shown quite often), doesn't like that she is being sent to the Maw for damnation by the arbiter, frees and aids jailer to change her fate, is killed and damned for being a selfish monster.

That won't happen. But it's what should happen. We need more evil women in this game, they're almost all goodie-two-shoes now, even Lillian. In fact, if I think of villainous women in WoW lore it's like... Azshara. It would be nice to not have the expected twist of "Wait! Sylvanas was always on our side!"

[TEHPALLYTANK]

No, it really doesn't. They're incompatible with the concept of living beings, frankly I don't understand why the Jailer and Sylvanas are considered villains but you can literally join the Kyrians and help them in completely erasing the existence of individuals. I'm waiting for a bigger evil to appear in SL than the Kyrians, but so far I'm not seeing anything remotely as bad.

You need to be perfect to design a perfect machine, unless a perfect being created and maintains the Kyrians they're inherently flawed. That they fail to see this doesn't negate the evil of their treatment of souls brought to the Bastion.

[Zmagoslav]

Bastion is the place those, who gladly make a sacrifice for the greater good go to.
IE: not most people.

What people gladly oversee is that we don't force them to forget anything, they do it of free will.

Why would i help the evil Kyrian?

Because without them the whole machinery won't work?
Sometimes it helps if you try to see the bigger picture.

Who would you rather have serve your food?
a) A truly neutral person
b) somebody with baggage, who might judge you or even hate you on their past experiences

[Irian]

If you think they're horrible and awful people, I think you kinda overlooked a key aspect of becoming a Kyrian.
Unless I'm mistaken, there isn't a single example of someone being forced to become Kyrian or serving Bastion. It's a completely willing choice, and even the Forsworn were accepted and free to do as they please until they started attacking Bastion. So why is it that Bastion is evil for allowing people to undergo the rigid trials to become one of them?

[Jessicka]

If you think they're horrible and awful people, I think you kinda overlooked a key aspect of becoming a Kyrian.
Unless I'm mistaken, there isn't a single example of someone being forced to become Kyrian or serving Bastion. It's a completely willing choice, and even the Forsworn were accepted and free to do as they please until they started attacking Bastion. So why is it that Bastion is evil for allowing people to undergo the rigid trials to become one of them?

Aside from the part where they literally look on and watch Aspirants who fail die (again)?

All the indicators of dying in the Shadowlands suggest you either then die forever (Ardenweald) or get dumped as trash into the Maw (Revendreth). Either way, they do not treat failure well.

It’s not a choice the soul makes either, they don’t make it easy to walk away, they just beat you harder into facing the challenges The beatings continue until morale improves. Its also made absolutely clear the Arbiter decides, that you face the trials of Bastion, you either succeed and become a mind wiped slave, forever, or you face some other fate - and seemingly not a good one.

[Tronski]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

Oh lol, this again. J

"Dead soul, some of them of taurens who already suffered prosecution as indigenous people, being forced into assimilation! Boycott Blizzard for telling these stories!"

[Irian]

Aside from the part where they literally look on and watch Aspirants who fail die (again)?

All the indicators of dying in the Shadowlands suggest you either then die forever (Ardenweald) or get dumped as trash into the Maw (Revendreth). Either way, they do not treat failure well.

It’s not a choice the soul makes either, they don’t make it easy to walk away, they just beat you harder into facing the challenges The beatings continue until morale improves. Its also made absolutely clear the Arbiter decides, that you face the trials of Bastion, you either succeed and become a mind wiped slave, forever, or you face some other fate - and seemingly not a good one.

How does this change anything about the fact that being a part of Bastion is a choice? Because people sometimes fail and die? I mean...okay. People fail and die in Maldraxxus so often that there are literal piles of corpses. Venthyr casually drain souls out of existence. Night Fae choose which souls are "worth" allowing to be reborn. This isn't unique to Bastion.

I also don't really see any proof anywhere in Bastion that they force you to undergo the trials. Yeah they try to keep you from failing, but they also don't exactly imprison or torture those who fail. The only times they fight the Forsworn are in retaliation from being attacked by them.

[Improtaight]

Thats exactly what i was thinking.
during the story i kept wondering to myself "these bad guys are actually preaching something good, too bad they're killing every1" lol