Is the Alliance really based upon tradition?

[OwenBurton]

This is a bit of a longer post. According to the official site, the Alliance is driven by "tradition", as well as justice and duty, whilst the Horde is driven by unity, as well as freedom and hope.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races

However, I do not believe that is necessarily the actual case in the lore. In fact, isn't it almost the other way around? What Alliance race, compared to their Horde counterpart, is truly traditional? Wasn't the original point of the Alliance to keep their world safe and free from an alien invasion?

Humans: Not really, they lost huge parts of their ancient land as well as most of their original seven kingdoms, at one point or another. Forced to change and adapt a lot in recent decades; they can play almost every class and are very versatile and adaptive, which is why human magi are more talented at magic than the elves; also gets along well with most races, according to Diplomacy racial, look at Anduin and his tolerance towards other peoples, even to the point of alienating some of his own friends

Dwarves: Three clans living together and working in unity and relative harmony; Dark Iron clan especially has had to change a lot, giving up a lot of their former traditions as they renounced Ragnaros and joined their estranged kin; Moira's very union with Thaurissan indicates how the two broke with all their traditions to become a genuine couple.

Night Elves: Maybe they are traditional. But they also accepted the Highborne and the worgen back into their society, into their very capital. They have joined with younger races and bowed to their authority and their wisdom, look at Tyrande with Varian for example - and have completely reshaped their once-elitist and xenophobic society since ancient times. Look at the Cenarion Circle accepting the tauren and trolls into Moonglade. Look at their tacit acceptance of demon hunters, their forgiveness for Maiev, their allowing males to join the priesthood, and females to become druids. They have changed as well, a lot.

Gnomes: Very democratic and progressive, maybe the most democratic system of all the known races. Heavily modernized society. Very forward-looking perspective and world-view

Draenei: Abandoned homeworld. Became refugees, and lost most of their ancestral traditions, renamed themselves, adopted new belief system and culture. Very high level of magic and technological innovation. Have been to dozens / hundreds of planets -- exposed themselves to entirely new and diverse cultures, and have adapted in order to properly survive.

Worgen: Lost their kingdom, and their ancient home. Spread out across three continents, mingling with other races and peoples, abandoned old isolationism completely to actively engage with the world's affairs. Becoming a worgen itself is about distinctive change and adaptation.

Pandaren: Maybe. But the fact that so many of the Tushui have left the Wandering Isle and befriend complete strangers so easily implies that they are willing to bend their traditions as well.

Void elves: Embraced radical new teachings and limitless possibilities, abandoned sun reverence completely, rejecting the Sunwell's power

Kul Tirans: Also abandoned isolationism. Have reconnected with their mainlander kin. Learned to accept and forgive Jaina Proudmoore, admitting they were wrong about her all along. Female Archmage who spent most of her life away from her homeland becoming Lord-Admiral itself seems to be setting a record; I doubt there were too many of those in history

Mechagnomes: Same thing, they've rejoined the gnomes. Accepted that they do not need to renounce flesh and mortality in order to progress. High level of technology, the fact they left Gnomeregan for Mechagon indicates they were explorers willing to expand and broaden their horizons

On the other hand, tauren, trolls, orcs are all very traditional and religious; shamanism is literally about honoring your ancestors and the customs they pass down from generation to generation (essentially preserving the past) in almost everything you do and strive for. Blood elves are Highborne descendants who are extremely proud of their ancestry and heritage. The same applies to Suramar's nightborne, who are even more haughty and refined; the two races indeed walled themselves from the rest of civilization for much longer than even Greymane ever could. Goblins seem to be just that, high-tech and materialistic admittedly, but not really changing their natures despite everything. The Forsaken, maybe. Because Sylvanas has left, and Calia is guiding them towards a different future. But most Forsaken players still seem to prefer the old order under Sylvanas and resent Calia.

So what do you think? Is the Alliance really more traditional?

[Super Dickmann]

Not in any real sense, which is part of why the Alliance is overbearingly dull and have only gotten more so with every iteration.

All exclusive aspects have been systematically expelled from the faction writing and replaced with more Captain America-style lawful goodness. We've gone from warlocks having to hide in basements, even mages being treated with extreme suspicion and a powerful religious order along with a venal nobility to Stormwind having no trouble hosting void elves, Varian endorsing warlocks as they suck out souls and the king being a-okay with everything from them, to worgen to undead. The Night Elf process you cover in the OP and has involved dispensing with everything from division by sex in terms of societal roles, to 10k years worth of issues with arcane being ditched because of incidents far less dire than the Legion invasion to a junior role at the table with Stormwind despite the relative strength and longevity of the respective states.

[Varodoc]

Strange. I thought the Horde was the progressive faction, while the Alliance was too dogmatic, too strict, too self-absorbed in the past, which made it uninviting to some races like the Sin'dorei.

But then again, Horde players can never agree on which complaints to use, so they often contradict each other.

[loras]

This is a bit of a longer post. According to the official site, the Alliance is driven by "tradition", as well as justice and duty, whilst the Horde is driven by unity, as well as freedom and hope.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/races

However, I do not believe that is necessarily the actual case in the lore. In fact, isn't it almost the other way around? What Alliance race, compared to their Horde counterpart, is truly traditional? Wasn't the original point of the Alliance to keep their world safe and free from an alien invasion?

Humans: Not really, they lost huge parts of their ancient land as well as most of their original seven kingdoms, at one point or another. Forced to change and adapt a lot in recent decades; they can play almost every class and are very versatile and adaptive, which is why human magi are more talented at magic than the elves; also gets along well with most races, according to Diplomacy racial, look at Anduin and his tolerance towards other peoples, even to the point of alienating some of his own friends

Dwarves: Three clans living together and working in unity and relative harmony; Dark Iron clan especially has had to change a lot, giving up a lot of their former traditions as they renounced Ragnaros and joined their estranged kin; Moira's very union with Thaurissan indicates how the two broke with all their traditions to become a genuine couple.

Night Elves: Maybe they are traditional. But they also accepted the Highborne and the worgen back into their society, into their very capital. They have joined with younger races and bowed to their authority and their wisdom, look at Tyrande with Varian for example - and have completely reshaped their once-elitist and xenophobic society since ancient times. Look at the Cenarion Circle accepting the tauren and trolls into Moonglade. Look at their tacit acceptance of demon hunters, their forgiveness for Maiev, their allowing males to join the priesthood, and females to become druids. They have changed as well, a lot.

Gnomes: Very democratic and progressive, maybe the most democratic system of all the known races. Heavily modernized society. Very forward-looking perspective and world-view

Draenei: Abandoned homeworld. Became refugees, and lost most of their ancestral traditions, renamed themselves, adopted new belief system and culture. Very high level of magic and technological innovation. Have been to dozens / hundreds of planets -- exposed themselves to entirely new and diverse cultures, and have adapted in order to properly survive.

Worgen: Lost their kingdom, and their ancient home. Spread out across three continents, mingling with other races and peoples, abandoned old isolationism completely to actively engage with the world's affairs. Becoming a worgen itself is about distinctive change and adaptation.

Pandaren: Maybe. But the fact that so many of the Tushui have left the Wandering Isle and befriend complete strangers so easily implies that they are willing to bend their traditions as well.

Void elves: Embraced radical new teachings and limitless possibilities, abandoned sun reverence completely, rejecting the Sunwell's power

Kul Tirans: Also abandoned isolationism. Have reconnected with their mainlander kin. Learned to accept and forgive Jaina Proudmoore, admitting they were wrong about her all along. Female Archmage who spent most of her life away from her homeland becoming Lord-Admiral itself seems to be setting a record; I doubt there were too many of those in history

Mechagnomes: Same thing, they've rejoined the gnomes. Accepted that they do not need to renounce flesh and mortality in order to progress. High level of technology, the fact they left Gnomeregan for Mechagon indicates they were explorers willing to expand and broaden their horizons

On the other hand, tauren, trolls, orcs are all very traditional and religious; shamanism is literally about honoring your ancestors and the customs they pass down from generation to generation (essentially preserving the past) in almost everything you do and strive for. Blood elves are Highborne descendants who are extremely proud of their ancestry and heritage. The same applies to Suramar's nightborne, who are even more haughty and refined; the two races indeed walled themselves from the rest of civilization for much longer than even Greymane ever could. Goblins seem to be just that, high-tech and materialistic admittedly, but not really changing their natures despite everything. The Forsaken, maybe. Because Sylvanas has left, and Calia is guiding them towards a different future. But most Forsaken players still seem to prefer the old order under Sylvanas and resent Calia.

So what do you think? Is the Alliance really more traditional?

You make a pretty solid case, though it has to be said: the horde clash more with what was traditional for them.

Neither is particularly traditional, but the horde has come face to face in a more dramatic fashion, with the orcs' traditional bloodlust (Pandaria/WoD)), the undead's despair and ruthlessness (BfA/Shadowlands) and has faced many intraspecies conflict (troll vs. troll/orc vs. orc (Blackrock horde), tauren vs. tauren (grimtotem, yaungol), goblin vs. goblin, etcetera).

So perhaps, compared to the horde, which so violently struggles to determine its new traditions, the alliance does seem sort of conservative.

[Nerovar]

That's the problem with modern WoW lore. Most of these factions used to be about tradition which is where a lot of the friction and drama came from. Characters like Anduin used to be the absolute exception which is the only reason why they even "worked" and why they seem so silly in the context of current lore. As of now, almost all of them have seemingly overcome that aspect of their society without any major issues. Sure, there were some minor conflicts with stuff like Maiev hunting down the Shen'dralar within Night Elf society during the Wolfheart novel but hatred for users of arcane magic is not really a notable aspect of Kaldorei society anymore.

At the end of the day, those "traditionalist" attitudes are only rehashed whenever Blizzard needs to push the plot in a certain direction e.g. Tyrande viewing the Nightborne with suspicion because of their history and infatuation with arcane magic which ultimately drives them to the Horde.

Blizzard seems to have a bit of love-hate relationship with these aspects of the lore which is perfectly epitomized by the Scarlet Crusade. To this day, the Scarlet Crusade is one of those factions people absolutely love to hate because they're evil fanatics but at the same time they're also incredibly iconic and cool. We've also beaten them seemingly every odd expansion only for them to once again crawl out of their holes again. Why is that? Because they are an outgrowth of human culture that is absolutely necessary to stoke conflict (which is what this game is about).

WoW ultimately suffers from this back and forth because it becomes less believable with every iteration. Alliance, Horde and Night Elves overcoming their old hatreds and ossified ideas about the other to defeat a common foe worked well in Warcraft 3 and felt powerful because of the differences that had to be overcome in order to get there. However, nowadays those differences aren't really there anymore as they have been eroded by necessity over the years and so the meaning and impact of this particular trope gets lost while Blizzard fails to think of new ways to rejuvenate this particular narrative.

Ultimately, it's an example of wanting your cake and eating it too. They want these factions to have these qualities that are perceived as negative or problematic because they push plot/conflict but at the same time they want to abolish those qualities because there's value in that narrative. Repeat this ad absurdum and you have current day Alliance vs. Horde dichotomy.

[The Butt Witch]

Oh please, the Horde is driven by whichever is the evil asshole in charge.
The Alliance is driven by the reaction to the bullshit the latest Horde asshole is pulling.

The Horde hasn't been the "noble savage" for 10 years now. And even now the Horde is just waiting for the next asshole to take the reigns so the flame of faction conflict is kept alive.

[Maljinwo]

Yes. Tradition of Human dominance

[The Butt Witch]

Yes. Tradition of Human dominance

Humans are the most numerous and most versatile of all races. What a big surprise that they end up being the dominant race in the Alliance.

On the other hand, the Horde has kissed the Orcs' butts since its inception.

Warcraft is about Humans vs. Orcs. All other races are there for the ride.

[dope_danny]

I think the idea is that despite the changes the alliance are based for the most part around the same seats of power pre Warcraft 3 whereas the Horde outside of the suramar crowd are either based around entirely new societies founded during or after wc3 or in places like silvermoon that have fallen to ruin to be a shadow of what they once were.

[Wildberry]

On the other hand, the Horde has kissed the Orcs' butts since its inception.

Kind of funny anyone would even think this considering the path that the Horde has been on since the end of MoP. Let's see:
-Garrosh's Orc centrism is presented as "bad" despite being justifiable both within the narrative & as a thematic staple of the Warcraft Franchise.
-We spend the latter half of an expansion specifically fighting against "Orc supremacism."
-We have a Troll Warchief forced on us.
-We get an entire book on why "kissing Orcs' butts" is bad
-We go into an expansion centered on killing foundational Orc/Horde Heroes. The Iron Horde is contrasted against the newer multicultural Horde which has experienced a (literal) changing of the guard.
-Our useless Warchief dies as the beginning of the next expansion and we have an Undead Elf forced on us. Orcs now take a backseat (Why would they have any interactions with the Legion, after all?)
-We get another Faction War expansion. This time Orcs get cameos as random commanders, all while Sadfang/Baine & Sylvanas serve as the two competing visions of the Horde.
-Sylvanas deposed, likeliest replacement Warchief is an Orc (if only technically), we can't have that so the position is dissolved & we now have a multiracial council cementing us firmly as "Red Alliance."

What game have you been playing?

[Ardenaso]

I thought Alliance = law and order and Horde = chaos and permissibility

[Maljinwo]

On the other hand, the Horde has kissed the Orcs' butts since its inception.

Warcraft is about Humans vs. Orcs. All other races are there for the ride.

Except the Horde has actually followed leaders from other races and has dealt several times with the concept of orc supremacy:

-Garrosh was ousted because of his ideals and treatment of non-orcs (And paid goblins I guess)
-He is replaced by a troll, which marks the first time the Horde is led by something other than an orc, thus breaking the "kissing orc butts" idea
-The next expansion portrays orcs as war addicted psychopaths and the Horde fights them instead of allying with them despite having past Orc Heroes
-The warchief is now an undead elf for reasons, continuing the path of the Horde not being led by orcs
-An orc finally rises to prominence again and is killed. The Horde abolishes the Warchief office and no orc rises to the ocassion of leading it so far
-Another troll sits as leader of Orgrimmar, for reasons

[Razion]

The Alliance is composed of many races where old glory is gone.

Humans:
Used to use "The Old Ways." Used to be Vrykul - fierce, barbaric. Used to be Titanforged before that.
The only real semblance of tradition they have is that they believe in the Light because of Tyr - but they did that out of respect for Tyr. They've forgotten the Titans now.
Most of Stormwind Knights are just throwaways who cower and run from any random baddy - they're extras. Red Shirts.

Dwarves:
Years of in-fighting, huge wars of clans dominating for supremacy. Used to be Earthen before that - builders.
Are they fighters or builders now? No, they're archaeologists and explorers now.

Gnomes:
"Masters of magic," that used to be the technological center of the world. At the time of Titans, they were Inventors.
The technological center of the world has been lost forever and they're constantly "getting it back", even when they "got it back".
They're probably one of the closest to their original Titan design, the least changed.

Draenei:
The Eredar were masters of magic. So powerful to be considered some of the wisest and most powerful in the cosmos.
Velen is still powerful, but might of the average Draenei is far from what it used to be. Relatively, better off than Humans and Dwarves, though.

Worgen:
Still respect the Old Ways. Lost a Kingdom but made a new home almost immediately after and made allies at the same time. But then they lost their home again - but they fought in the war to take back Darkshore and won. They're certainly better off than Humans or Dwarves in terms of tradition and maintaining some semblance of might, though.

Wandering Isle Pandaren:
They don't know much, if anything, about Pandaria before leaving the Isle. They didn't even know their island was a turtle until they're more or less compelled to leave by invading forces forcing their eyes open to how blind they've been. If we're talking about tradition, the things they've maintained is their tradition of monk training, and valuing things like food and family. But largely speaking, that record of history is missing. More consistent than Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Draenei, and Worgen at least.

Void Elves:
A shining magical capital of the world, ruined by one man's death march. Before that, again, masters at the center of the world's power. Before that, well, Trolls, supposedly - fighting off Old Gods and beating back ancient bugs into the dirt. Now they're living with the Void instead of against it. In terms of being precisely what they used to not be, this is probably the most egregious of all of them. Like, seriously, in terms of a long-con the Void really did a number on Trolls by turning them into Void Elves, eventually. Is this the least traditional of all? Yeah I'm going to say so.

Lightforged:
Used to be Eredar, Draenei, but are now Warriors of the Light. Not really as magically diverse or really as inventive, and old histories seem not really relevant to how they live now. But they are stronger now, apparently, due to fighting the Legion for so long. Half and half - they're as strong as ever, but whatever traditions they used to have seem either gone or non-existent or relevant to how they're living up till now, which was basically just an effort to survive.

Kul'Tiran:
Retain more of their Old Ways and relative mass/strength comparative to other Humans. Still a far cry from Vrykul and Titanforged, though. In terms of maintaining a strong sea presence that hasn't changed. In terms of being servants of the Titans made to fight off corruption, being a race that plunges their faith to the depths is another worrying example of the Void putting its tendrils into the influence of another race and having them believe it's for the better. They may not be in as deep as the Void Elves relatively, but in terms of being Azeroth's essential defense as Titanforged they've certainly lost sight of what they were fighting.

Mechagnomes:
King Mechagon wanted to return to a Titanforged design, and they fought off a return to that past glory. While they may be the technological center of the world right now, in terms of being closer to their Titanforged design the mentality of trying to actively change and "upgrade" constantly is over time making them very different. They used to have a Titanic design of Titan origin, but now they're made of scrap. In terms of specifically being like their old ways, it is kind of different, but the cultural spirit of invention is still there - so a little half and half going on here.

Saying the Alliance is "about tradition," is true in the sense that they all have past glories that they have largely forgotten.

[Dagoth Ur]

Ultimately, modern Alliance's values is what took over the story so I don't think this even matters anymore.

Just look at the current state of the Horde. All characters that are propped up as faces of it are the ones who are compatible with Alliance's cast and who previously, when Horde actually was the Horde and had its own flair, were outliners.

All the old symbols and values that characterized the Horde and its characters have been purged to dust and now we're just an amalgamation of these different colored superheroes participating in mainly Anduin's story.

[Arrashi]

I think its more in a "meta" sense. Alliance is very traditional (if not outright generic) "good guy" faction.

[omeomorfismo]

Strange. I thought the Horde was the progressive faction, while the Alliance was too dogmatic, too strict, too self-absorbed in the past, which made it uninviting to some races like the Sin'dorei.

But then again, Horde players can never agree on which complaints to use, so they often contradict each other.

because you know, horde wasnt an human black hole, so different races=different ideas. not different race=same bowing to the human master lord

[Soon-TM]

It certainly isn't. As a matter of fact, its all-accepting inclusiveness of these days makes it even duller than in the days of the first MoP.

EDIT: While the leadership of the Alliance is largely unchanged from the WC2 days, as far as names go, the characters have suffered a notable regression towards nothingness. Genn, who was clearly an assh0le now serves as Anduin's substitute father, and little else. The Dwarven council has done exactly nothing since its inception, despite having big names such as Muradin and Moira. Mekkatorque was a cool raid boss, I guess, but little else. And Tyrande... is well, Tyrande, perhaps the most cringeworthy character these days, second only to Sylvanas.

The Light-worshipping, kill undead-on-sight humans of WC3/early WoW, today have no problems with Void-worshipping methheads strolling around their major cities, and have talked out all their problems with their undead cousins of Lordaeron. This last part wasn't even that difficult, since it apparently didn't take more than half an hour of friendly chitchat with the Golden Boi and his retinue.

I mean, I'm all for inclusiveness IRL, but in fiction this is definitely facepalm-worthy.

[Cyanu]

The Alliance is the faction with the long proud history of knights in shining armor beating monsters in the name of peace, justice and the Holy Light, dwarves are also very traditional people in all their itterations and gnomes despite being progressive seem to be mostly absorbed by their tougher cousins, Night Elves on the other hand are defined by tradition and their past, all their stories begin with '10000 years ago...', Draenei are also a very traditional light centered civilization so not much changed in that direction


on the other hand the Horde is mostly composed of races that try to forget the past and the traditions that failed them:

Orcs: demonic corruption, brutal wars, slavery, the collapse of their homeland... and their warlike traditions played a huge part in those events, they don't want more of it, they want to evolve- something Thrall a very progressive Warchief emphasized

Undead: fuck tradition plague it all

Trolls: another race that it's tradition and warlike ways left it with nothing, they don't have much to be proud about

Tauren: very traditional indeed

Blood Elves: after the Scourge invasion they tore down their traditions and even changed their name, the light? it failed us- subjugate it, the arcane? weak- fel on the other hand... frost? pff, why freeze what you can burn?, blue? nope, that calm and peaceful color does not represent us in any way anymore, even after they took a step back from what they had become after Kael'thas which was almost demonic/felblood elves they're still very different to the wise and calm High Elves they used to be

Goblins: tradition? old stuff worth little money, pal!

the horde is much more reckless, revisionary and unpredictable than the alliance, it also cares alot less about the past, as the Alliance are the 'owners' of Azeroth, the continuation of a legacy, while the Horde are survivors with no Legacy to be proud of

[mickybrighteyes]

Humans are the most numerous and most versatile of all races. What a big surprise that they end up being the dominant race in the Alliance.

On the other hand, the Horde has kissed the Orcs' butts since its inception.

Warcraft is about Humans vs. Orcs. All other races are there for the ride.

Humans are so versatile that they are better at organizing wars than generals with thousands of years more experience. I mean it is understandbale that Draenei might not be the best warfighters given how they ran so much over those long millenia... but literally ANY elves that have lived longer than the existence of the human nations? what the fuu....

[The Butt Witch]

Humans are so versatile that they are better at organizing wars than generals with thousands of years more experience. I mean it is understandbale that Draenei might not be the best warfighters given how they ran so much over those long millenia... but literally ANY elves that have lived longer than the existence of the human nations? what the fuu....

The Elves haven't been at war for 10.000 years, they got soft and forgot all about it. Humans have always been at war with eachother as well as the Trolls.