As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[msdos]

The problem with picking Night Fae as FDK is in order to maximize it you have to stand in D&D, you have to have another GCD before you can start dpsing, so more ramp up, then you have to worry about movement and timing of it.
So if you look at Patchwerk sims of it, I'm sure it beats out Kyrian. But in reality, Kyrian is an instant 40 yard DoT that doesn't punish you for using it first that can cleave onto other targets even when things happen to be getting repositioned. You don't see this on sims, this is an experience and knowledge type of thing.

Night Fae is basically a noob trap in raids unless you know all the fights and/or have them all on farm. But I'd wager a gamble that most people are selecting based on dungeons dps. The little critter teleport thing isn't as useful in dungeons as it is raids and Death's Due isn't as useful in raids/pvp as it is in dungeons.

[Shakzor]

not sure whats so funy about that...

That a whooping 75% of those DKs did NOT choose what performs best, but what they thought was coolest or most fitting, even though people here claim all the time that "Literally everyone" chooses performance over everything

[Cosmic Janitor]

not sure whats so funy about that...
for pve, its weak option for aoe and kind of useless for single target
for pvp its mildly useful (if your oponent is rly bad), but still pretty weak... i mean literaly every caster have something to get out of it and melees can use it against you...

He is laughing because you are quite wrong.

[munkeyinorbit]

1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

2. These numbers prove that far more then min/maxxrs care about optimizing their specs. That argument has been wrong from the day I made this thread and has always been wrong since day 1 of WoW. Nobody picks up WoW and intentionally tries to be subpar and non competitive.

3. No. Signatures are very limited on this site compared to what they used to be and this information is there. As an FYI I have not touched Shadowlands since launch due to this fear of pigeonholing and constantly never being able to optimize my class while also playing the Covenant that I wanted. Paladin for example if forced into Kyrian but I would personally prefer to play Revendreth but I would bein purposely gimpimg any group I entered and wasting my time on renown in the long run that gives me meaningless returns compared to someone who picked Kyrian because they saw it on Icy Veins.

I'm interested in why your opinion matters. You don't play the game so you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are irrelevant to any conversation about SL.

[Lolites]

He is laughing because you are quite wrong.

please enlighten me then

[Biglog]

The link is to numbers showing choice by class/spec, not numbers. A lot of that just has to do with cosmetic choices. Most Demon Hunters or DKs aren't going to go with Night Fae for the armor or mount. Likewise a Druid is going to look funny on a Necrolord mount. That doesn't necessarily mean numbers aren't balanced if someone wants to look goofy. Certain classes/specs are a better appearance fit for certain covenants and that is going to make those combinations more common. That however does not mean necessarily they are more powerful.

Gear and player skill variance has a far larger effect on output than covenant choice for 99% of players. Even if you are raider with your guild, do mythic+, you are in that 99% and no where near top world where small differences like covenant choice are going to matter. And for those 1% top world unicum players where it does matter, that's the choice they are making to choose covenant purely on numbers to top world raid. The problem seems to be that a lot of common players think a 1% racial choice or covenant choice is going to somehow cramp their playstyle, which is missing the forest for the trees when the same class/specs vary far more than that in meters just on skill.

For players that want to min/max it despite not being top world, nothing wrong with that either. But certainly don't feel forced into a Covenant choice. If anything it kind of tempts me to do an alt of one of the less common combos, like a Necrolord Holy Paladin.

[Cosmic Janitor]

please enlighten me then

Necrolords is usually treated as the second best option for ST while also still having a usefull component in AoE. It's also very good for unholy, so it's pretty much the default allround pick. You saying it's the worst is just flat out wrong by all suggestions out there.

Night Fae also has alot of issues when it comes to usability in any fight that requires movement.

Edit: Not to mention that DK is rather lucky last time I checked and with all other covenant rubbish they are pretty close in what they can pick anyway.

[Puremallace]

This is the bit I think you clearly don't seem to get. A lot of people really don't care about relative performance, and play this game for the aesthetics and other fun, not dungeon or raid performance.

Pretty sure the numbers for most specs in WoW prove people who called out this problem were right. The idea that casuals do not min/max has been a fundamental misunderstanding of how casuals are forced to operate in a world of Raider IO where to get the best use of your time which is far more limited then hardcore players they are forced to min/max to even play the same game.

I am 100% confident in my prediction that after trash mobs and bosses starting hitting far harder in Mythic plus and raids any idea of choice in Shadowlands will be eliminated in the face of stark realities. The idea of picking a Covenant for looks was cute maybe in BFA world where you could obtain gear through multiple sources but those days are done in favor of a more Classic approach of less gear drops behind dungeon/raiding content with far more minimal drop rates.

I'm interested in why your opinion matters. You don't play the game so you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are irrelevant to any conversation about SL.

A lot of people like me are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see if predetermined views of this feature turn out to be exactly what we expected. This is all before the nerfs come to try and even out these numbers and people have invested an inordinate amount of time into these Covenants to find out all their work/time has been wasted.

[Orange Joe]

1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

2. These numbers prove that far more then min/maxxrs care about optimizing their specs. That argument has been wrong from the day I made this thread and has always been wrong since day 1 of WoW. Nobody picks up WoW and intentionally tries to be subpar and non competitive.

3. No. Signatures are very limited on this site compared to what they used to be and this information is there. As an FYI I have not touched Shadowlands since launch due to this fear of pigeonholing and constantly never being able to optimize my class while also playing the Covenant that I wanted. Paladin for example if forced into Kyrian but I would personally prefer to play Revendreth but I would bein purposely gimpimg any group I entered and wasting my time on renown in the long run that gives me meaningless returns compared to someone who picked Kyrian because they saw it on Icy Veins.

Unless you are in the top 1%. no one cares. This whole Hurr durr you gimp... is just bullshit. Not everyone plays to min max. A lot of people only play to have fun.

[Alubobz]

Oh good my convent is the least popular... Less people farting around my area. Glad to see

[Lolites]

Necrolords is usually treated as the second best option for ST while also still having a usefull component in AoE.

in other words, its not best for neither single target nor aoe... and sure fae ability have issues when you need to move (not like limb is without issues) but its still best option for both M+ and raids...
literaly my whole point was its not best choice in any way yet it was chosen by most frost dk, so that fearmongering (or how to call it) that people will choose "best" and ignore aesthetics is just plain stupid

btw mentioning unholy is kind of pointless when specificaly talking about "best" choice for frost so dunno why you are pulling that out...

- - - Updated - - -

So...did Blizzard call you yet to make and / or sign off on their design decisions for the next x-pac(s)? Or for that matter any other studio that very likely is watching breathlessly what random anonymous posters in the community know beyond doubt "10 minutes after a feature is announced"?

funny is this "proof" he posted actualy shows he is wrong, as with exception of few specs its not massive majority for one "best" covenant...

[TheFirstOnes]

Me, a Ret Paladin Kyrian: lol

[Queendom]

Can someone please clarify in simple words what OP has predicted and what has actually happenned?

[ClassicPeon]

Can someone please clarify in simple words what OP has predicted and what has actually happenned?

I was literally about to write the same thing

[Lolites]

Can someone please clarify in simple words what OP has predicted and what has actually happenned?

he predicted people will only choose the "best" covenant and ignore aesthetics, it didnt happen, he posted proof it didnt happen and claims its proof it did happen

[salate]

Wasnt it like... They made elisandre trinket, it was bis, they made op legendary, it was bis... they made HoJ in vanilla and guess what? Bis. Anyway BiS hunters are minority today imo. Covenants are great tho, I will pick Necrolords on my alt, because... I loved characters

[Lolites]

I was literally about to write the same thing

see in post 36 above

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Yes, a lot of people play hunters and druids (Night Fae is best for BM, MM, Feral, Resto, and Boomkin in most situations). Necrolord is the worst Covenant for most specs, also completely unsurprising. Night Fae is best for many dps specs, and it will remain that way especially in CE content I'd bet. An extra 15% damage against targets above 75% health and below 35% health is enormously useful for execute phases and getting early phase shifts.

Thought claiming it is purely for dps isn't necessarily true. I'm choosing which specs and classes based on which Covenant is best, not the other way around. I'm not playing anything that has Kyrian in the #1 spot because I hate the Kyrians (I will not be tanking much this expansion, and the only tank I intend to run is a prot paladin, Venthyr is a solid choice for prot in raids).


Night Fae is best or competitive with Kyrian for something like half of the dps specs, this is wholly unsurprising. Necrolord is easily the worst Covenant for many specs. Fleshcraft probably should be changed into a buff instead of a channeled ability, cause throwing away 3+ GCDs for a very weak shield straight up sucks.

[Nyel]

Doesnt matter unless you are doing world first.

It does matter because in many cases classes have Covenant abilities that are completely useless which results in a difference of 10-20% overall - sure, it won't make most content unplayable, but you're deliberately gimping yourself.

[Cosmic Janitor]

in other words, its not best for neither single target nor aoe... and sure fae ability have issues when you need to move (not like limb is without issues) but its still best option for both M+ and raids...
literaly my whole point was its not best choice in any way yet it was chosen by most frost dk, so that fearmongering (or how to call it) that people will choose "best" and ignore aesthetics is just plain stupid

btw mentioning unholy is kind of pointless when specificaly talking about "best" choice for frost so dunno why you are pulling that out...

You literally called them worst when they literally are not. Also the other DPS spec for a DPS class being part of the descision doesn't matter when people make such choices? Are you for real?