As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[dcc626]

Similar to how you would have to gimp yourself in pvp/pve when you pick a class that isn't top 5 I guess

if all it took was picking the best class/covenant/whatever to be great, id agree. people should spend more time being better at the game, will do more for them then fotm-ing everything.

[Stormwolf64]

Here is the solution to all your problems regarding bullshit requirements etc. Make your own group. It works fantastic and you know there are a lot of people out there who don't care for that elitist system. Now i know what you might be thinking. "these people surely can't be any good" and whoopsie there we might go full circle with the whole problem. I enjoy doing it with those people though, but sadly you get elitists who try to take over or just act like imbeciles. Swift kick in the butt remedies the situation though.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Btw you know that the ability balancing (or rather design) has failed for your class when one pick is 10 times the representation of 2 others.

[Lolites]

You literally called them worst when they literally are not.

they are not best in anything, and they are not best "all-around" choice - that would be night fae, not only by me but by icy veins and wowhead authors, who probably knows better than average joe - so yes, they are worst when it comes to performance

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[QUOTE=Haidaes;52860377]Also the other DPS spec for a DPS class being part of the descision doesn't matter when people make such choices? [/QUOTE i ]

sooo you choose covenant based on spec you DONT play? i would say most frost dks will choose what they want as frost dk, and if they decide to respec they change it then, rather than play whats best for other spec in case they decide to respec...

[protip]

I haven't seen a single person complain about someone else's covenant so far. I'm sure it'll happen sometimes once progression starts and people see what's happening in m+ tournaments, but MDI metas don't translate directly into pug keys. People clear mythic content with all sorts of different compositions. A solid, consistent raider is far more valuable than an inconsistent one who chose the "right" covenant. There is no reason to panic about this. You don't have to like it, of course, but it's definitely not the catastrophic event you're making it out to be.

I chose an off-meta covenant (nobody cares), and you might not believe this, but actually: nobody cares.

[Cosmic Janitor]

they are not best in anything, and they are not best "all-around" choice - that would be night fae, not only by me but by icy veins and wowhead authors, who probably knows better than average joe - so yes, they are worst

You might want to actually read the guides and not just stop after you've seen the first bullet point in a table.

[ldev]

Numbers change, looks don't (not in video games anyway). I wouldn't worry about it.

Numbers change. To buff Prot paladin Necrolord: you're talking about 5000% number change to make it comparable to Kyrian?

Covenants are bullcrap. Like your main is a warlock and you wanna go Venthyr? Their covenant ability is a DPS loss if you're Destro.

There are spec and covenant combos that are just fucking THE SUCK compared to alternatives. Again, prot paladin - people wouldn't choose Necrolord even if that hammer did literally 30k damage, it is that bad compared to Kyrian. Kyrian does wayyyyy more damage on aoe on top of giving an insane shield.

It's not number problem, it's fucking fundamental DESIGN problem.

[Triceron]

1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

1. Raids are designed to be accomplishable with blue gear. This is well established. Stats are not as important as execution of mechanics.
2. Other than top tier Mythic and top-tier competitive PVP, what does this matter? There's a reason why min-maxing isn't mandatory; there is freedom to choose how you play.
3. If the game didn't want choice then it could be designed like any number of F2P MMO's that give everyone the same gear, same items and only differ through cosmetics. Play Guild Wars 2 if you don't like anything being gimped; the end-game stats are all the same across the board no matter if you're a fresh end-game character or one that has been playing for over a decade.

You'd quickly see how bland things become from not having the choice to play with an inferior build/spec/covenant choice. It's actually the one defining thing that makes elitist jerks mentality fairly exclusive to WoW and few other modern MMO's.

[Deferionus]

Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

and now the results:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.

I strongly wanted to go Necrolord but I couldn't due to this design. I have played an affliction warlock since vanilla with only extremely small bouts with other specs. My choice was Necrolord with basically a glorified shadowbolt, or another covenant with an actual dot that complimented my spec. Either decision would leave me unhappy, so I ultimately went with the DOT choice so at the very least I will not have people scrutinizing my choice in cooperative gameplay.

This is my only real gripe about this expansion so far. I hope they change it.

[Tesshin83]

This is a community forced problem, not a blizzard created problem. If you even consider it a problem.

People even clearing normal will try to emulate what hall of fame guilds even though they dont get any specific benefit out of it.

Also people take guides as gospel and are obsessed with numbers that make you look good on meters.

This is the same stupid mindset which people stand in fire and doing their rotation while shouting for healing.

Its nonsense.

I picked the covenant that fits my specc and gives me a lot of mobility and survivability. Its the best choice for progression as a healer. But because this philosophy doesn't produce orange parses, people will refuse to think for themselves.

[Cyanu]

Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

and now the results:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.

not sure what was bad and is going to get worse...

most specs have at least 2 viable covenants (some even 3), often with one being prefered in M+ the other in raiding etc and all the guides keep insisting that the dps difference is quite small

this obsession to be optimal every moment in the game NEEDS to go, pick what matters to you and live with it, if you change your mind change covenant, as long as you don't do it too often it should be fine

as if everyone plays at 100% of their class capabilities and a soulbind trait with .1% increase is going to hold them back... most people need a reality check here, it's ridiculous to miss out 30% of your DPS due to suboptimal plays and obsess over the .something% you might miss if you pick the 'wrong covenant;'

[kenn9530]

Original thread 10 minutes after Covenants were announced
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nts-now/348779

and now the results:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...io#wowranks-io

As has been predicted from the day this feature was announced even with heavy nerfs people would have to be willing to purposely gimp themselves in PVP and PVE just for an aesthetic choice. Once Raider IO takes over the expansions tomorrow this will get far worse not including raiding.

Out of the source information I can count 10 specs (not at 50% concentrated) that have an option on what they want to play but some of those are before impending nerfs that will force the players to optimize their Covenant choices.

Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.

It doesnt matter, if your able to clear CE content within the current patch you will still be able to do it if your class is using its worst covenant, the power increases are not that big at all anyway and if a covenant was too good it will just get a nerf or others be buffed.

[ldev]

This is a community forced problem, not a blizzard created problem. If you even consider it a problem.

People even clearing normal will try to emulate what hall of fame guilds even though they dont get any specific benefit out of it.

Also people take guides as gospel and are obsessed with numbers that make you look good on numbers.

This is the same stupid mindset which people stand in fire and doing their rotation while shouting for healing.

Its nonsense.

I picked the covenant that fits my specc and gives me a lot of mobility and survivability. Its the best choice for progression as a healer. But because this philosophy doesn't produce orange parses, people will refuse to think for themselves.

Shame that choosing a covenant sometimes leads to same result as unequipping weapon. Are you seriously that kind of a player that unequips his weapon just because unarmed combat looks better? Don't be ridiculous. Covenants right now are a failure.

[Tziva]

People gravitating towards particular covenants doesn't mean the difference between them is significant. People just tend to copy the meta, especially if they don't have a personal preference themselves.

This only means something if people who pick outside of a particular covenant are severely handicapped. As of the last balance patch, that wasn't the case for the grand majority of specs as I understand it. The differences are very small.

[LordVargK]

How does the website account for people that play multiple specs?

[Zenfoldor]

OP is right, I have to admit. The problem isn't that you can pick anything you want, the problem is that most people are picking the meta, so in the end, the covenant system is just another form of cookie-cutter build which I understand Blizzard does not find engaging, judging by the state of talents.

You can be outside of it this time, but it is difficult to pretend it doesn't exist, considering some of those specs are approaching 90% compliance to the meta in that spec. Apparently the player base didn't get the memo.

[ldev]

People gravitating towards particular covenants doesn't mean the difference between them is significant. People just tend to copy the meta, especially if they don't have a personal preference themselves.

This only means something if people who pick outside of a particular covenant are severely handicapped. As of the last balance patch, that wasn't the case for the grand majority of specs as I understand it. The differences are very small.

Wrong. My main is a paladin - necrolord is a joke, kyrian ability is literally a nuke. Alt - warlock. Venthyr ability is a DPS loss single AND aoe targeting, no matter the target count.

Difference between is so significant I'd compare shit covenants to missing two or three talents. It's bullshit.

Start learning that, or be in denial that "numbers change" or "covenants are close to each other".

[Queendom]

Personally I just chose whatever covenant (and the covenant talent guy whatever it's called) the icy veins guide for my class/spec said, I don't care about aesthetics since all of this stuff is not what WoW aeshetics are to me, I'd never transmog the armor or use these mounts anyway, all these characters and zones will be gone in 2 years and never return, why even bother. Just ride the FOTM train while it goes.

[rhorle]

1. To choose a Covenant because of looks means during raid, mythic or pvp you are purposely choosing to gimp your team. On DPS check bosses or any boss for that matter this is easily the difference between an easy kill or struggling for 4+ hours.

In 90% of all cases the team is already gimped by people not being that skilled. If you are struggling for 4+ hours because of your groups covenant choices then there is a problem with the group already and not the covenant choices. The numbers don't prove anything because it doesn't take into account any popularity of the choices by themselves or people that blindly follow guides.

[Zenfoldor]

There is the assumption that there is a gigantic group of silent players who play for fun and don't look up their specs or care generally about the state of the game or their character.

I submit that this group is smaller than we theorize. It doesn't take a min/max theorycrafter to google "how to ice mage shadowlands" and people aren't as ignorant of the Internet as they were even a year ago. We think it is easy because any rocket scientist thinks rocket science is easy, but this is a complex game, to be honest, and it doesn't surprise me that most people need to go outside the game to learn how to play the game. Especially with the older, niche audience playing wow who has now been through this multiple times.