[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Ahsoka Tano

[Heathy]

yeah the strong female character has become a bit of an annoying trope.

it doesn't help that to make this happen men are usually reduced to barely functional bumbling idiots so that the female character can stand out as somewhat competent and 'I don't need no man'.

I think its wearing off though, disney CEO recently said something like they are going to reel in with the woke stuff because its not helping them being political and pushing political messages. I think they've realised that hiring activists to write their content isn't really helping them all that much.

[Darththeo]

Lol, so, how disappointing is Ezra in combat? I'm not sad about it however. BUt notice how males are only badass when evil, because they need to show the girl beat the bad man. While the male heroes continue to be a shadow of either what they once were or what they should have become... so as not to outshine the female stars.

No way could we have had a badass Ezra, not possible.

This show has no surprises. Still, it is a better visual specatacle than Mando S3, and more enjoyable too, only Andor was better than it in the lucas film releases, and that just goes to show how bad it all is.

THe Ahsoka fights are not cool, keep feeling disappointed.. can't get actors to be as cool as anime versions? Then check out into the badlands.

Did you and I watch the same show? Because people are literally ranting about how Ezra fighting pretty much exclusively with the Force was amazing. The only people hating it are people like you who have an agenda to grind. Also, Ezra has never been a great fighter. Most of Ahsoka's life she spent training to fight or fighting. Sabine comes from a race of warriors. Most of Ezra's life he has lived as an urchin essentially.

Shin was absolutely embarrassed by Ezra until Ezra made a mistake and got tossed back.

Why are you watching a show solely to hate on it? Don't you have anything better to do with your time? You are just looking for things to hate.

[Endus]

thats because ppl think of balance like an equilibrium, and yet its just no conflict. bringing balance to the force in the OT and the prequels was pretty clearly said by obi wan.

'isn't he the chosen one, isn't he meant to DESTROY the sith and bring balance to the force'.

he even shouts it AT anakin.

'you were the chosen one, you were to destroy the sith not join them, bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness'.

its not really that vague.

I don't know why you think Obi-Wan is omniscient and infallible. The idea that he's wrong, that he's parroting flawed Jedi dogma, doesn't occur to you?

Again, the actual events that occur in the films prove that Obi-Wan was wrong about these things.

Lol, so, how disappointing is Ezra in combat? I'm not sad about it however. BUt notice how males are only badass when evil, because they need to show the girl beat the bad man. While the male heroes continue to be a shadow of either what they once were or what they should have become... so as not to outshine the female stars.

No way could we have had a badass Ezra, not possible.

Ezra's fight was great. He got punked by Shin one time, that's it.

Also, this gender bullshit is just meaningless misogynistic drivel, and in no way supported by the modern era shows and films. It's entirely in your heads.

[exochaft]

yeah the strong female character has become a bit of an annoying trope.

it doesn't help that to make this happen men are usually reduced to barely functional bumbling idiots so that the female character can stand out as somewhat competent and 'I don't need no man'.

I think its wearing off though, disney CEO recently said something like they are going to reel in with the woke stuff because its not helping them being political and pushing political messages. I think they've realised that hiring activists to write their content isn't really helping them all that much.

I think it peaked with the last Ashoka episode, where Ezra knows they're going to be up against a Force user with a lightsaber along with a band of arms melee/ranged attackers; not only does he turn down a lightsaber and a firearm to go barehanded, but also he gets his butt handed to him easily by said Force user with a lightsaber just so Sabine can look better by comparison by going up against someone she should not win against (Sabine should lose to one Force choke or throw as the opening move, as she was taken out by the same moves more than once in this same show). Add on top everyone aiming blaster shots at the beskar plates, enemies just not attacking or standing around doing nothing, the self-referred gunships not even flying around and shooting, etc., the world has to bend so much for the show's events to happen. The amount of stupidity that has to happen to attempt to make Sabine look cooler and more useful than she is in situations she should automatically lose is astounding. Sure, this happens in other ways throughout the series, but turning Ezra into an incompetent moron to make others look better was peak current-day 'strong female character' trope.

As I always say, it doesn't have to be this way. You can make your female characters strong without resorting to making everyone around them low-functioning rocks, but it takes competent writing to do that. Unfortunately, the decisions every character makes in the show are so silly and nonsensical that it's not hard to believe that the writers are intentionally urinating on the fans while telling them it's just tears from seeing a cameo or a red lightsaber or music queue.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock into what the Disney CEO is saying, as he's said similar things about a year ago. It's akin to a political dance, where you try to keep the investors happy, keep your ESG score high, and try not to piss off your customers at the same time. His best ally is time, where he probably hopes enough time passes that people forget about the negatives; sadly, he's probably right about such things. Once I see definitive actions being taken instead of the equivalent of political posturing, then I'll be more willing to believe change is coming. As a side note, if Disney didn't have all their amusement park revenue, I could've seen changing coming a LOT sooner if it ever does come.

[Darththeo]

I think it peaked with the last Ashoka episode, where Ezra knows they're going to be up against a Force user with a lightsaber along with a band of arms melee/ranged attackers; not only does he turn down a lightsaber and a firearm to go barehanded, but also he gets his butt handed to him easily by said Force user with a lightsaber just so Sabine can look better by comparison by going up against someone she should not win against (Sabine should lose to one Force choke or throw as the opening move, as she was taken out by the same moves more than once in this same show). The amount of stupidity that has to happen to attempt to make Sabine look cooler and more useful than she is in situations she should automatically lose is astounding. Sure, this happens in other ways throughout the series, but turning Ezra into an incompetent moron to make others look better was peak current-day 'strong female character' trope.

You're lying here.

Ezra clowns on Shin until he does a dumbass rush and gets slammed against on of the Noti's home. Shin in no way shape of form handed Ezra his butt. She at most got a cheap shot in.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah yes the KK way of “woman can do it all alone” like with.

Reva, oh wait she lost and then was turned fork the dark by a man.

Bo soloing Moff Gideon, oh wait no she lost and was then saved by 3 men.

Ashoka escaping Vader, oh wait she was saved by a man time traveling.

Sabine Being able to master the dark saber alone, oh wait no she had to be trained by a man.

Oh oh but Rey surely did every thing, if we ignore Finn/chewy getting her off starkiller, Kylo saving her from snoke and then again from the emperor.

[Endus]

Did you and I watch the same show? Because people are literally ranting about how Ezra fighting pretty much exclusively with the Force was amazing. The only people hating it are people like you who have an agenda to grind. Also, Ezra has never been a great fighter. Most of Ahsoka's life she spent training to fight or fighting. Sabine comes from a race of warriors. Most of Ezra's life he has lived as an urchin essentially.

Ahsoka, as a student, was acknowledged as one of the most naturally talented duelists in the Jedi Order. It's why she uses twin sabers and developed her own unique style with them.

People seem to keep forgetting that.

Shin was absolutely embarrassed by Ezra until Ezra made a mistake and got tossed back.

Ezra's whole fight with Shin was very Luke Skywalker, IMO.

And frankly, getting more fight scenes like we've had in this and the Obi-Wan show as opposed to the spinny bouncy bullshit of the prequels era is only a positive all around. The prequel trilogy has the absolute worst lightsaber combat of any Star Wars property. At least they're exploring new ideas here rather than "Oooh, flashy spinny lights make dopamine go zooooop" nonsense.

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You're lying here.

Ezra clowns on Shin until he does a dumbass rush and gets slammed against on of the Noti's home. Shin in no way shape of form handed Ezra his butt. She at most got a cheap shot in.

And then nearly immediately ran away.

[Heathy]

I don't know why you think Obi-Wan is omniscient and infallible. The idea that he's wrong, that he's parroting flawed Jedi dogma, doesn't occur to you?

while I agree with you that the jedi are flawed, I'm not sure I agree that the jedi are secretly some sort of manipulative faction deliberately preventing ppl from having lives for no real reason.

you seem to think that there is some sort of hidden agenda but that doesn't seem to be in line with their ideology. again I get that ppl wish there was some alternative to this polarising situation. but I think ppl are fishing too much for reasons why the jedi are somehow secretly as evil as the sith. when they obviously aren't.

from their experience, they have come to the conclusion that their ideology is at least somewhat, preventing ppl from becoming rampaging monsters. because that is the alternative.

what the jedi can't change is human nature. which is inherently selfish. and not always in a deeply negative way, but wanting things for yourself is a human trait. having desires, friends, lovers. going on adventures, these are what we consider 'living' and the jedi lack this. which ultimately makes some ppl disillusioned and ultimately causes them to distance themselves from the jedi, either they exile themselves, they are exiled for not following the code, or they simply fall to the dark side.

[Kathandira]

I think it peaked with the last Ashoka episode, where Ezra knows they're going to be up against a Force user with a lightsaber along with a band of arms melee/ranged attackers; not only does he turn down a lightsaber and a firearm to go barehanded, but also he gets his butt handed to him easily by said force user with a lightsaber just so Sabine can look better by comparison by going up against someone she should not win against

Straight up head canon.

[Endus]

Ah yes the KK way of “woman can do it all alone” like with.

Reva, oh wait she lost and then was turned fork the dark by a man.

Bo soloing Moff Gideon, oh wait no she lost and was then saved by 3 men.

Ashoka escaping Vader, oh wait she was saved by a man time traveling.

Sabine Being able to master the dark saber alone, oh wait no she had to be trained by a man.

Oh oh but Rey surely did every thing, if we ignore Finn/chewy getting her off starkiller, Kylo saving her from snoke and then again from the emperor.

Also the lack of strong male characters if you ignore all the strong AND moral male characters like Obi-Wan and Djin Djarin and Cassian Andor and those are just title characters for their respective shows, not the secondary casts which I could also dig into.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Also the lack of strong male characters if you ignore all the strong AND moral male characters like Obi-Wan and Djin Djarin and Cassian Andor and those are just title characters for their respective shows, not the secondary casts which I could also dig into.

Ya but those men all got helped by woman at some point or aren’t as nebulously “cool/strong” as who ever they are holding up so there not real men.

[Endus]

while I agree with you that the jedi are flawed, I'm not sure I agree that the jedi are secretly some sort of manipulative faction deliberately preventing ppl from having lives for no real reason.

Not "people" in general, galactically, but their own members? Absolutely.

The entire reason Anakin is open to Palpatine's temptations is because the Jedi Order would kick him out and possibly kill him as a threat if they found out he had a girlfriend and later, a wife. Literally, it's just that. Obi-Wan himself wouldn't overlook it, and Obi-Wan was not exactly that devout on that particular dogmatism himself.

This is all explicitly stated in the prequels, it's not even interpretation. They say it right out loud from both Anakin's and the Jedi Order's perspectives.

And on the prophecy about Anakin; he was brought to bring balance to the Force. The Jedi interpreted that as "killing the Sith, because we're the ones who are balanced", but what actually happened was Anakin destroying the Jedi's supremacy, and reducing their numbers such that they were on relatively equal footing with the remaining Sith, more or less, numbered in dozens rather than thousands. This is just demonstrating that the Jedi interpretation was wrong, which is right in line with the narrative role of prophecy in all fiction, which is that prophecies always come true, but never in the way that's expected.

you seem to think that there is some sort of hidden agenda but that doesn't seem to be in line with their ideology. again I get that ppl wish there was some alternative to this polarising situation. but I think ppl are fishing too much for reasons why the jedi are somehow secretly as evil as the sith. when they obviously aren't.

My stance above about their hostility to personal connections is directly out of the Jedi Code and openly stated as an ideological principle by multiple different Jedi in the films. It shouldn't be controversial.

Also, "not as evil as the Sith" is not a statement that the Jedi are "good". Hell, the narrative of the prequel trilogy is explicitly that the Jedi Order was arrogant and unyielding and lost in their own supremacy and dogma, and that's why they were corrupted and had to fall. That's literally the text.

from their experience, they have come to the conclusion that their ideology is at least somewhat, preventing ppl from becoming rampaging monsters. because that is the alternative.

Expressing a group's dogma about why their ideology is "correct" is never a good approach to understanding if that's true. The Sith think they're "correct", too. Maybe not so much in the Palpatine era, which was mostly about that one dude, but historically in the setting at least.

what the jedi can't change is human nature. which is inherently selfish. and not always in a deeply negative way, but wanting things for yourself is a human trait. having desires, friends, lovers. going on adventures, these are what we consider 'living' and the jedi lack this. which ultimately makes some ppl disillusioned and ultimately causes them to distance themselves from the jedi, either they exile themselves, they are exiled for not following the code, or they simply fall to the dark side.

Yeah, this isn't coming from the films, this is you inserting a largely unjustifiable opinion about human nature that you hold, into the films.

[Heathy]

ah but the prophecy was eventually fullfilled at the end of the OT, anakin did kill palpatine in the end and destroyed the sith, that was meant to be the end of this entire saga, there weren't supposed to be any more movies after the OT, that was the conclusion to the loooong ass saga.

ofc the problem is the round about way the force gets rid of dark side users, it doesn't seem to care that much how many ppl die in the process. anakins prophecy was eventually fulfilled, it just cost a shit ton of lives to get there.

the jedi don't really have a whole lot of choice in the way they teach force sensitives, it has to be this way because ppl will fall to the dark side if they were allowed to live their lives. there would be a lot more dark side users if they just let force sensitive do whatever they want. many more of them would become sith. or simply dark side users.

by teaching ppl to be zen, peaceful, without desire for power, you limit the number of ppl who will fall. ofc its not perfect because ppl still fall. but many don't because of the jedi teachings keeping them at peace.

[Endus]

ah but the prophecy was eventually fullfilled at the end of the OT, anakin did kill palpatine in the end and destroyed the sith, that was meant to be the end of this entire saga, there weren't supposed to be any more movies after the OT, that was the conclusion to the loooong ass saga.

By then the EU was already wildly active and this really was not ever the case. You're making stuff up to try and justify your position, rather than using the canon itself to tell you what the "correct" interpretation would be.

[Heathy]

how am I making stuff up it happens in the fucking movie... watch the movies ffs.

ppl are so fucking desperate to insert their own agenda into the jedi when they don't need extra added bullshit to make them more flawed, they are flawed, but you seem to be fishing to make them equally as flawed as the sith but they aren't.

they advocate peace because that stops ppl falling to the dark side, its pretty clear cut that this setting is just that polarising.

the jedi were the original form of morality in this universe and they are painted as 'good' while the sith were an off shoot and they are unequivocally 'evil'. it isn't any more complex than that. a story about good and evil has one side be good, the jedi, and one side be evil, the sith.

the corrupting nature of the force prevents any sort of middle ground that wouldn't have ppl eventually fall to the dark side and cause more and more suffering. again while the teaching of the jedi are flawed, its a better alternative to having random ppl continually fall to the dark side in droves. bringing chaos and destruction. they don't have much choice but to be that way. ofc it doesn't stop everyone from falling, but it does stop a lot of them from doing so.

the threat of even a single powerful force user is that bad. that the jedi have to be the way that they are. the alternative is a whole lot worst.

a jedi's life is sacrifice, in more ways than one.

[Endus]

how am I making stuff up it happens in the fucking movie... watch the movies ffs.

The movies weren't the only canon at the time. At no point in the films did they ever say the Dark Side or the Sith specifically had been forever defeated. That's what you're making up.

ppl are so fucking desperate to insert their own agenda into the jedi when they don't need extra added bullshit to make them more flawed, they are flawed, but you seem to be fishing to make them equally as flawed as the sith but they aren't.

Dude, you're the one inserting non-canon points into this discussion, not me.

they advocate peace because that stops ppl falling to the dark side, its pretty clear cut that this setting is just that polarising.

They advocate peace, except for when they're active soldiers and generals. Your position is directly contradicted by the films, dude.

the jedi were the original form of morality in this universe and they are painted as 'good' while the sith were an off shoot and they are unequivocally 'evil'. It isn't any more complex than that. a story about good and evil has one side be good, the jedi, and one side be evil, the sith.

When your "good" side permits and engages in slavery, uses mind-control to manipulate those around them for personal convenience, is explicitly and solely responsible for the fall of the the central figure of the prequel and OT trilogies, and is explicitly described as arrogant and corrupt and unyieldingly dogmatic in the prequel trilogy, I question how closely you're following the actual narrative.

I mean, you could argue that Lucas is a weird guy who has super fuckin' weird views about what's "good", but you shouldn't just blindly accept that the Jedi are the "good guys" just because the Jedi tell you so.

the corrupting nature of the force prevents any sort of middle ground that wouldn't have ppl eventually fall to the dark side and cause more and more suffering. again while the teaching of the jedi are flawed, its a better alternative to having random ppl continually fall to the dark side in droves. bringing chaos and destruction. they don't have much choice but to be that way.

So sayeth the Jedi, who led everything to the rise of the Empire and the near-annihilation of their own Order in the process.

You really need to engage more critically with the content you watch, dude.

[Heathy]

ok know it all, where in the canon does it say that the jedi are secretly manipulating ppl for no reason?

I can wait...

again, everything you have said is a product of the setting.

wasn't the jedi who ordered the clones, actually sith?

maybe the clones didn't mind being clones, they were bred specifically for loyalty, they existed for one purpose. it is great no. what should obiwan have done with the clones, ordered them all destroyed, that seems like a worst option, let them free, perhaps they weren't made to be independent?

compared to the sith, they are the good guys, its not that it tells you so, its that their actions speak louder than words.

are they forcing whole populations under their whim? are they obliterating planets? are they killing indiscriminately?

they are the good side COMPARED TO the sith.

are they absolute beacons of purity, probably not. but they aren't actively causing pain and suffering so that seems like the better alternative than unchecked quests for power.

they are flawed because they reject any chance to change or grow/evolve/adapt. that is their flaw, they can't learn from past mistakes. but what choice do they have exactly? what could they improve on that would result in even less people falling to the dark side? let people be more human? thats how revan was trained.

the jedi are apathetic to all the suffering in the galaxy but they do only help out when they happen to be nearby, if they decided to go on conquests to rid the galaxy of injustice it would cause more of them to end up like revan. a noble cause doesn't mean its going to end well for the ppl who end up going around massacring armies. eventually that just takes it toll on ppl and they will fall. they do have a hands off approach by default, because it is a fine line between maintaining your sanity and losing it.

[rhorle]

Lol, so, how disappointing is Ezra in combat?

A brawler force user that doesn't rely on a lightsaber is awesome. Why does he need a shiny laser sword to be bad ass?

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ok know it all, where in the canon does it say that the jedi are secretly manipulating ppl for no reason?

In the prequels Obi-wan used a mind trick to tell a drug dealer to re-think his life. That is manipulation for no reason. All the guy did was ask Ob-wan if he wanted to buy some drugs. The Jedi use mind tricks to get their way. That is manipulation the same as the Sith. The difference is the Jedi use it in accordance with their religions rules. So their use isn't seen as bad unless they do it in a way that goes against those rules.

[eschatological]

My understanding was that the EU was never canon, and, until the prequels, the only canon material was the OT.

I'm not sure where I fall on the dogma aspect of the Jedi being "evil." Obviously any humanist is going to find any kind of constraint on the individual to be im/a-moral, but the real life analogue to the Jedi, Buddhist monks, manage to maintain that discipline without being evil-as-an-organization (there's a bunch of individual examples of them falling short, like the Dalai Lama being pretty sexist, for example). Similarly, Catholic priests have restraints like that put on them - I wouldn't call the priesthood inherently evil, but I can certainly see how such constraints on what one might consider one's own humanity just pressures people into being assholes. But that could apply to any endeavour that requires extreme discipline, like being an NFL player, or a Special Forces operator. Pressure makes diamonds, or explosions, etc.

The question to me then becomes: if "giving in" to one's humanity, which tends towards animalistic behaviors of survival of the fittest, self-propagation (IE being horny as fuck) and extreme self-interest is the path to the Dark Side (which is basically the metaphor of what the Dark Side is, the excess of human hedonism), is the opposite of that also evil? If we go back to the Buddhist monk analogy, they obviously preach The Middle Path (though strangely don't seem to practice it in re: sex, food, alcohol, etc), or even Aristotleian ethics where extremes at either end are vices, then yes, I think you can fault the Jedi for being too rigid. Which is why all the non-canon stuff went towards Grey Jedi, and why the prequels ended up with Anakin's fall being less seduction and more the overwhelming pressure of being a Jedi collapsing in on itself. Balance shouldn't be found within Good and Evil on the opposite ends of the scale, but within oneself.

With that said, I cannot find myself saying the Jedi are equally as destructive as the Sith, just like I can't say Buddhist monks are equally as destructive as, say, the tyrannies that try and squash them historically.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

ah but the prophecy was eventually fullfilled at the end of the OT, anakin did kill palpatine in the end and destroyed the sith, that was meant to be the end of this entire saga, there weren't supposed to be any more movies after the OT, that was the conclusion to the loooong ass saga.

Both Lucas and Hamill actually gave interviews in either the 70’s or 80’s about how there was suppose to be an episode 7-9 and that Hamill would take place as the Obiwan character passing on his saber.

The prequels how ever seemingly killed any joy Lucas had for the idea and I don’t believe he ever mentioned them again until post sale.