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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyiana View Post
    we should reserve judgment on the all-time list. but, we can absolutely compare point-to-point with the other two "modern" wow expansions, bfa and legion.

    I'm having as much fun as I was after a month of legion, and infinitely more than i did after a month of bfa. bfa was bad the instant it launched. this has been extremely good.
    And this time, theres no rng in my legendaries!

    Also, we got PvP Vendors, spammable M+, raids, sorrowbane, and legendary slots + the guranteed vault weekly, that lets you choose your stuff now.

    Gearing has slowed down with no spammable visions that your friends can carry you through, nor afk warfronts for hc loot, but hey.

    Atleast you don't have to throw loot away every 10 minutes of playtime, or get belts 3 weeks in a row from the chest.
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  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuli View Post
    You are really really ignorant to all the launch problems of BfA. You pretty much had to grind everything available in the game at launch to be on the curve for Uldir and the first Mythic+ season.

    Player Power Reward Mechanics in Shadowlands:
    - Raids
    - Dungeons
    - PvP
    - Torghast (1-2 hour per week depending on your skill)
    - Renown

    Player Power Reward Mechanics in BfA:
    - Raids
    - Dungeons
    - PvP
    - Island Expeditions
    - Warfronts
    - Emissaries
    - Reputations (meaning WQ Grind)

    It gets even better when you look at the other things to do. I have so much fun stuff to do rn, that I don't want BfA or WoD back at any time. But it's optional! I can use my time for other games, stuff or real life, while BfA burned through so many people because of that grind.

    Cosmetic Reward Mechanics in Shadowlands, that don't reward Player Power:
    - Maw/Twisting Corridors
    - Anima
    - Covenant Sanctum
    - Sanctum Ability
    - Reputations
    - Pet Battles
    - Callings

    Cosmetic Reward Mechanics in BfA, that don't reward Player Power:
    - Pet Battles

    People like you either didn't play at BfA launch while wanting to raid asap or try to twist facts because they want to make the game look bad. As with Artifact Power in Legion, Azerite was a real problem and the reason systems like that are gone for now.

    As a PvP player BFA and Legion asked me to do sh17 load of PvE content to be relevant in PvP.
    Today, in Shadowlands, I am ilvl 194 fully PvP gear and I did only 4 normal dungeons since the start of this expansions. Didn't do any heroic, any mythic, didn't step foot in raid (LFR or any other).

    Bfa was a infinite grindfest, and on top of that it had many issues with the azerite gear that was fk in 8.0, with the azerite gear that was LOCKED and you had to GRIND the hell out of Azerite Power to unlock it since it had wrongly unlocked levels.

    There are so many bad things that happend during BFA that it made me quit WoW for the first time in 15 years of playing. Just because the time involved in actually playing what I want was almost equal or even less then the time I needed to do choores to be relevant in PvP.

    Again, I'm the kind of guy that dettaches and tries to think objectivly, but as a PvP player, BFA was hell and worse then The Maw


    All weekly stuff in Shadowlands need 4 hours, the rest of the time in the week is your playtime of WHAT YOU WANT TO PLAY ONLY.


    Maybe for most that joined during Legion or even worse, BFA, they are strucked by NOT HAVING TO DO so many choores, and they miss beeing put on the treadmill, like *mices, or are struck by the way loot works now, or maybe there should really be some improvements made in the loot design of Shadowlands, but apart from that, I mean ... man what a wonderful feeling to log in and play if you wanna play what you wanna play, or just log out and play other games or do other stuff.
    Last edited by Kel_Sceptic; 2020-12-30 at 02:14 PM.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    See, this and the thing you quoted by Toybox, "There's a lot of content, it's just that none of it is required for player power," strike me as spin.

    This expansion is fundamentally identical to the previous expansion. None of those things were "required" in BfA, or Legion, beyond the way that they are now - to do raids, you need gear from dungeons and/or PvP. To be best at raids, you'll want to spam mythics and heroics to fill any bad slots until raids give you better gear for those slots. Mythic rewards may have been a little better in the last expansion, but not so much so that any serious raid leader would say "it's cool if you guys just come in blues because the gear in mythics isn't the absolute best." Reputations were not "required" in (launch) BfA/Legion; you may have wanted the rewards, but there were plenty of other places to get equivalents.

    Meanwhile, even raiders still have to tick these boxes at least for the next few weeks: you have to cap your soul ash in Torghast, you have to do the quests necessary to hit the Renown cap, you have to do the farming/crafting required to get the next 'base item' for your legendary, and if you're not already geared, we're still in that "do all the mythics" phase. These are mandatory for whatever "player power" is, because the game does not generate gear out of the nether. And make no mistake, just like every other expansion, Blizzard will put in grinds to replace those as soon as you've finished them - BfA didn't launch with the grinds it ended with, nor did Legion, nor did Warlords, or really any other expansion.

    Compared to launch BfA, it really seems like there are more boxes to tick, and they're fundamentally less rewarding in and of themselves; Renown and soul ash are long-term grinds with few if any short-term rewards. Which isn't to say it's the worst, because I'm literally doing them right now, and I wouldn't be if I totally hated it. But to say anything has changed seems like a marketing byline. This expansion is largely identical to the last, and if anything has changed, it's mostly only in the set dressing.
    The biggest change i'm seeing is the time investment needed not to "lag behind", in BFA you "needed" to do pretty much all WQ's certain rep levels with certain factions (think the 15 ilvl steps with CoA for example), do all the daily jobs and then do islands untill your eyes bleed.

    Needed between quotes since basicly you never needed to do all that stuff unless your in a top 20ish guild.

    But SL is a lot lighter on the box ticks imho, The weekly souls / anima / covenant campaign for renown takes a few hours a week and thats basicly it with the stuff you "need" to do, to advance. Sure theres torghast, but as soon as you have the legendary (or legendaries) you want its basicly optional content for the collector. The maw you can mix max for (i think) 6 sockets, but with the lower socket value its feels a lot less mandatory than 8.3 sockets.

    And after the renown stuff i can focus on stuff i want to do, not stuff i need to do. I can do some M+ with friends, can work on my cosmetic rewards, can go out and collect rares / treasures etc for achievements. Do some old content, all without not feeling pushed into content or feel left behind.

    For me atleast its day and night comparing SL with BFA and i found BFA a lot worse.
    Last edited by chronia; 2020-12-31 at 10:36 AM.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by chronia View Post
    The biggest change i'm seeing is the time investment needed not to "lag behind", in BFA you "needed" to do pretty much all WQ's certain rep levels with certain factions (think the 15 ilvl steps with CoA for example), do all the daily jobs and then do islands untill your eyes bleed.

    Needed between quotes since basicly you never needed to do all that stuff unless your in a top 20ish guild.

    But SL is a lot lighter on the box ticks imho, The weekly souls / anima / covenant campaign for renown takes a few hours a week and thats basicly it with the stuff you "need" to do, to advance. Sure theres torghast, but as soon as you have the legendary (or legendaries) you want its basicly optional content for the collector. The maw you can mix max for (i think) 6 sockets, but with the lower socket value its feels a lot less mandatory than 8.3 sockets.

    And after the renown stuff i can focus on stuff i want to do, not stuff i need to do. I can do some M+ with friends, can work on my cosmetic rewards, can go out and collect rares / treasures etc for achievements. Do some old content, all without not feeling pushed into content or feel left behind.

    For me atleast its day and night comparing SL with BFA and i found BFA a lot worse.
    What? Reps were useless in BfA. And you practically didn't lag behind just by doing one M+ and 3 islands a week. That was all to stay with curve.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What? Reps were useless in BfA. And you practically didn't lag behind just by doing one M+ and 3 islands a week. That was all to stay with curve.
    I guess you didnt read my post, esp this line Needed between quotes since basicly you never needed to do all that stuff unless your in a top 20ish guild.

    As thats kinda what i meant

    With the added benefit that SL doesn't push you into unenjoyable content like islands (even a few a week was not enjoyable at all after the first few resets) and the likes just you keep a neck on a certain level or warfronts for a extra piece of loot

  6. #366
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What? Reps were useless in BfA. And you practically didn't lag behind just by doing one M+ and 3 islands a week. That was all to stay with curve.
    Multiple reps gated multiple levels of Pathfinder and your neck required as much Azerite as possible. Only doing 1 m+ and 3 islands would leave you at a disadvantage to anyone willing to grind more power than you were, this doesn't even take into account that Azerite armour needing certain neck levels to even activate it. Where as Anima is basically a cosmetic upgrade grind.

    Try again.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-31 at 03:07 PM.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    Multiple reps gated multiple levels of Pathfinder and your neck required as much Azerite as possible. Only doing 1 m+ and 3 islands would leave you at a disadvantage to anyone willing to grind more power than you were, this doesn't even take into account that Azerite armour needing certain neck levels to even activate it. Where as Anima is basically a cosmetic upgrade grind.

    Try again.
    No, it was more than enough since vast majority of my AP came from M+, Raids and weekly chest. Yeah i did like islands but they were far from required because all content rewarded you AP. You just watched too many world first race streams.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  8. #368
    Overall, I'm liking it. I am going very slow though and am about 1/3 of the way through Ardenweald. I will say that I hated Maldraxxus and couldn't wait for it to be over. Bastion was okay and Ardenweald has a nicely developing storyline.
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  9. #369
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No, it was more than enough since vast majority of my AP came from M+, Raids and weekly chest. Yeah i did like islands but they were far from required because all content rewarded you AP. You just watched too many world first race streams.
    I watched none. I never played in BfA. If I watched too many you were just lazy. Anything that is a direct increase to your stats that can be leveled without limit is going to invite people who do care about their personal performance to commit to it. It was a poor system in Legion and it got worse in BfA.

    Honestly SL is the first expansion I've put any actual time investment in since MoP! From WoD to BfA I leveled to max to get the stories and then watched the rest of the expansions play out through youtube.

    I'm having a blast.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-31 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    I watched none. I never played in BfA. If I watched too many you were just lazy. Anything that is a direct increase to your stats that can be leveled without limit is going to invite people who do care about their personal performance to commit to it. It was a poor system in Legion and it got worse in BfA.
    If you didn't play BfA why are you even spreading misinformation
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No, it was more than enough since vast majority of my AP came from M+, Raids and weekly chest. Yeah i did like islands but they were far from required because all content rewarded you AP. You just watched too many world first race streams.
    Dude, you are so full of it at every subject you are whining about. Alot of people are saying Legion and BFA was sh17 because we were forced to cross paths even if we didn't like to do it; we were forced to farm ap to stay on a floating point. From a PvP player's PoV, you HAD TO FARM AP to stay relevant and OFC you had to farm M+ and raids to get gear and essences.


    Now, you keep repeating that actual looting system is garbage, but at the same time you:
    1. you got 2 normal items from runing only 1 full run in CoN, that is 1 item every 5 bosses. even if one item was from this weekly quest 4xtimewalking or greater vault, it is still gear you obtained.

    2. you got 6 heroic pieces out of 24 heroic boss kills. That is 1 piece every 4 boss killed. OR even if you got 1 item is the weekly quest that required 4xmythic done; and probably 1-2 out of the Great Vault but even so, it is still gear and you got it.


    You are ilvl 205 and I am ilvl 196.
    I've played 11days 7hours ot of a total 35 days since I hit lvl 60. You still don't hear me whine that gear is bad, gearing is shit, there is no rewarding in shadowlands.

    Dunno what expectations you got there about gearing, but hell, getting 6 heroic items in 5 weeks, since leveling to 60, I'd say it shows there are not alot of problems with the gearing system in Shadowlands. Maybe just individuals's proplems because they got used to the gear showers they got in BFA.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Kel_Sceptic View Post
    Dude, you are so full of it at every subject you are whining about. Alot of people are saying Legion and BFA was sh17 because we were forced to cross paths even if we didn't like to do it; we were forced to farm ap to stay on a floating point. From a PvP player's PoV, you HAD TO FARM AP to stay relevant and OFC you had to farm M+ and raids to get gear and essences.


    Now, you keep repeating that actual looting system is garbage, but at the same time you:
    1. you got 2 normal items from runing only 1 full run in CoN, that is 1 item every 5 bosses. even if one item was from this weekly quest 4xtimewalking or greater vault, it is still gear you obtained.

    2. you got 6 heroic pieces out of 24 heroic boss kills. That is 1 piece every 4 boss killed. OR even if you got 1 item is the weekly quest that required 4xmythic done; and probably 1-2 out of the Great Vault but even so, it is still gear and you got it.


    You are ilvl 205 and I am ilvl 196.
    I've played 11days 7hours ot of a total 35 days since I hit lvl 60. You still don't hear me whine that gear is bad, gearing is shit, there is no rewarding in shadowlands.

    Dunno what expectations you got there about gearing, but hell, getting 6 heroic items in 5 weeks, since leveling to 60, I'd say it shows there are not alot of problems with the gearing system in Shadowlands. Maybe just individuals's proplems because they got used to the gear showers they got in BFA.
    Dude, you are trying too hard. It's obvious people don't like this expansion because nothing matters anymore and you keep imagining things people never said.
    Nobody was forced and that is a fact.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  13. #373
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    If you didn't play BfA why are you even spreading misinformation
    No misinformation to spread. I played BfA for the first month at launch and capped as well as the final 6 weeks before SL and it's the same system as Legion which I did the same. I also kept up to date with the game via youtube by watching multiple wow channels.

    It's problems were discussed to death over the life cycle enough for me to see the issues as well as the fact that I saw it at the start and end along with all the content in 1 condensed state.

    I know for a fact you're wrong because I saw the multiple iterations trying to correct the Azerite system at the end of the game as well as the fact I had to grind pathfinding in a 6 week period and know it was rep gated. Rep grinding was required, just like artifact power azerite grinding was also required for any committed raider. I ended the expansion with a neck at like 87 and saw people with 150+. Now If I had just started the game and wished to take up raiding mid way through the game cycle whats my plan for catch up for someone with a 80 neck and me at 0? If a guild has the option who do they take?

    Like I said, try again. Nobodies buying it.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-31 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    No misinformation to spread. I played BfA for the first month at launch and capped as well as the final 6 weeks before SL and it's the same system as Legion which I did the same. I also kept up to date with the game via youtube by watching multiple wow channels.

    It's problems were discussed to death of the life cycle enough for me to see the issues as well as the fact that I saw it at the start and end along with all the content in 1 condensed state.

    I know for a fact you're wrong because I saw the multiple iterations trying to correct the Azerite system at the end of the game as well as the fact I had to grind pathfinding in a 6 week period and know it was rep gated. Rep grinding was required, just like artifact power azerite grinding was also required for any committed raider.

    Like I said, try again. Nobodies buying it.
    Yeah thats cool, 6 first weeks when everyone was doing stuff because its new. After that, not so much. So yeah its misinformation, still nobody was forced and at least it mattered something.

    Now SL is so optional that you can op-out of playing at all.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude, you are trying too hard. It's obvious people don't like this expansion because nothing matters anymore and you keep imagining things people never said.
    Nobody was forced and that is a fact.
    I'm not trying anything dude, I just put out the way the game is, and for what kind of people. I didn't say gated is good or bad, cause some people may like it some may don't. But I'm outputing what the game has to offer, gated, no infinite grind, lower pvp ilvl then pve, how much time does it take to do the necesary stuff to do, stuff like that.


    But the real fact is that you got 2 normal items from 10 boss kills and 6 heroic items out of 24 boss kills, and at the same time whining that there are horrible loot drops in raid and mythic+. That is clearly a fact and washes down all your credibility, no matter how hard you try to make the lood drops bad.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuli View Post
    You are really really ignorant to all the launch problems of BfA. You pretty much had to grind everything available in the game at launch to be on the curve for Uldir and the first Mythic+ season.

    Player Power Reward Mechanics in Shadowlands:
    - Raids
    - Dungeons
    - PvP
    - Torghast (1-2 hour per week depending on your skill)
    - Renown

    Player Power Reward Mechanics in BfA:
    - Raids
    - Dungeons
    - PvP
    - Island Expeditions
    - Warfronts
    - Emissaries
    - Reputations (meaning WQ Grind)

    It gets even better when you look at the other things to do. I have so much fun stuff to do rn, that I don't want BfA or WoD back at any time. But it's optional! I can use my time for other games, stuff or real life, while BfA burned through so many people because of that grind.

    Cosmetic Reward Mechanics in Shadowlands, that don't reward Player Power:
    - Maw/Twisting Corridors
    - Anima
    - Covenant Sanctum
    - Sanctum Ability
    - Reputations
    - Pet Battles
    - Callings

    Cosmetic Reward Mechanics in BfA, that don't reward Player Power:
    - Pet Battles

    People like you either didn't play at BfA launch while wanting to raid asap or try to twist facts because they want to make the game look bad. As with Artifact Power in Legion, Azerite was a real problem and the reason systems like that are gone for now.
    You can get usable items via Callings (Emissary) in SL as well as from WQs/Rep Grinds. It's almost exactly the same number of available sources as BfA.

  17. #377
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Yeah thats cool, 6 first weeks when everyone was doing stuff because its new. After that, not so much. So yeah its misinformation, still nobody was forced and at least it mattered something.

    Now SL is so optional that you can op-out of playing at all.
    The fact that I did play it and know the system kind of points to the alternative doesn't it. It could only be misinformation if I hadn't tried it at all.

    What exactly is your motivation here? Are you being pissy because the content offered in SL is optional or because you want to be forced to grind to maintain status quo. Like is it some sort of masochism for you when playing? The entire game is optional, you don't have to sub at all.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Kel_Sceptic View Post
    I'm not trying anything dude, I just put out the way the game is, and for what kind of people. I didn't say gated is good or bad, cause some people may like it some may don't. But I'm outputing what the game has to offer, gated, no infinite grind, lower pvp ilvl then pve, how much time does it take to do the necesary stuff to do, stuff like that.


    But the real fact is that you got 2 normal items from 10 boss kills and 6 heroic items out of 24 boss kills, and at the same time whining that there are horrible loot drops in raid and mythic+. That is clearly a fact and washes down all your credibility, no matter how hard you try to make the lood drops bad.
    Nah dude you are trying to hard. SL is good for top tier guild and people who don't want to play at all.
    My luck has nothing to do with how horrible loot system is. Because you know. I am not biased based on MY luck as you are.

    Something you won't ever be able to understand. Basically if you got lucky = good loot system, if you get unlucky = shit system. Thats what you think while reality is much more complex. I won't repeat myself, you must be blind to not see issues with current loot system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    The fact that I did play it and know the system kind of points to the alternative doesn't it. It could only be misinformation if I hadn't tried it at all.

    What exactly is your motivation here? Are you being pissy because the content offered in SL is optional or because you want to be forced to grind to maintain status quo. Like is it some sort of masochism for you when playing? The entire game is optional, you don't have to sub at all.
    I was never forced, I do not have OCD. I am fairly sure vast majority of people don't have OCD like people on forums claim.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  19. #379
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    I was never forced, I do not have OCD. I am fairly sure vast majority of people don't have OCD like people on forums claim.
    Nobody is forced. WoW, now like then is capped based on what the player is willing to do. If you wanted to complete in world first races, you HAD to be as prepared as possible or you were offering up your spot to someone else who would.

    But it's not even WF players. Any direct increase in player power is going to seem like it's something you should be doing for your character. If the game is setup to encourage that in an uncapped system, it's poor design. Some people are OCD, most aren't but they'll still feel they have to so they can keep up.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nah dude you are trying to hard. SL is good for top tier guild and people who don't want to play at all.
    My luck has nothing to do with how horrible loot system is. Because you know. I am not biased based on MY luck as you are.

    Something you won't ever be able to understand. Basically if you got lucky = good loot system, if you get unlucky = shit system. Thats what you think while reality is much more complex.
    Well, when you will ever see a post of me bashing the loot drop rate system, I will gladly aknowledge your afirmation, until then, only one fact remains, you are geared good, and that is a REAL FACT.

    The difference between me and you, is that I am understanding that it might be a problem with the drop rates, MIGHT, but people are not showing their data cause it might prove otherwise. But you can't comprehend the fact that unlimited grinding power pushes people to grind, and that is in FACT a psychological complex problem.

    LE:
    An example of psychological problem is that FBI is not allowed to offer/show 1 milion dollars to a human, in a sting operation, because the human mind is so susceptible, that, in most cases, when people saw that ENORMOUS quantity of money, they were accepting that deal to ... anything (blow up somthing, kill someone and so on), even if they didn't hat that intention in the first place ).
    end /LE


    Someone else here said that all people that whine about not geting drops from raid and M+ runs, should post their armory so we can check it out.
    Until proven contrary, and from what information I got (your armory), how do I know that the whining people are in fact all "lucky" as you and they just miss the gear shower from BFA, while still beeing high level actually ))) ?
    Last edited by Kel_Sceptic; 2020-12-31 at 04:22 PM.

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