Did Sylvanas deserve to be sent to the Maw? And why is she so different from others?

[OwenBurton]

Now that Shadowlands has been released, people are forgetting about what sent Sylvanas down this dark path in the first place. Remember her decision at Icecrown to obliterate herself on saronite? And the experience she had in the Maw afterwards?

As the Arbiter was supposedly "active" back then, Sylvanas then was apparently judged to have deserved her fate. But in your honest opinion, was it a justified judgment of Sylvanas, given everything she had endured? She no longer cared about the faction war or the Horde. She only wanted peace, and oblivion. But even that was ultimately denied her. However, we should remember that she was also conducting experiments on human captives and Forsaken prisoners in the Undercity, and was not above blackmailing even her former kin in Silvermoon as was the case in Lor'themar's short story. We should also remember that she was apparently responsible for the Wrath Gate (as per a recent interview) that nearly caused the two factions to go to open war, wiping out all remaining trust between Varian and Thrall, which destroyed Saurfang's son's life, and inflicted nearly 9,000 total casualties among both factions.

Sylvanas loathes the Shadowlands. Because in her view, it is an unjust and tyrannical system which caused her suffering even though she had "no choice" in her fate being Forsaken, as she remarked to her sister Alleria in her reunion. Is her view at all justified? And either way, did she really deserve eternal torment for her crimes as of the end of the Lich King expansion?

Also, why exactly are Sylvanas and Nathanos so cruel and ruthless, comparatively? Look at Alonsus Faol, Calia Menethil or Derek Proudmoore, they all suffered considerably, dying horrible deaths against their will, yet they are not angry, bitter, or raging at the world, they are still basically the same exact people they were in life. Look at the Forsaken whom Sylvanas killed in Arathi, they all cared deeply for their old lives, for their family members, and some were willing to betray their entire faction to be with them. Look at the death knights, Thassarian, who would probably die to protect his living sister Leryssa instead of trying to secretly ambush and kill her, and his friendship with Koltira, who also seems honorable. Even look at Bolvar, who still loves his "Shining Star" Taelia, enough to honor her request to look into the Maw despite the risks of doing so, and who also seems to still care deeply for Anduin, his other "child". In short, they were all slain and raised (well, maybe not Bolvar exactly, but he has experienced most of the same things the others have). But they are not nearly as hateful or jaded as Sylvanas or Nathanos, despite the two being loyal and steadfast members of the Alliance in life just like the rest of them. Why is that?

[nizara]

Well considering everything Sylvanas has done, she was sent to the right place.

[Varodoc]

No one goes straight to the Maw. The Arbiter always gives people a chance to redeem themselves. That's why you have literal planet eaters in Revendreth.

Jailer saw Uther and Devos hijacking Arthas' soul and throwing it into the Maw, so he thought "Hm, what if I did the same thing?"

Cue Sylvanas committing suicide like an emo brat. The Jailer sends his minions to hijack her soul on the way to Oribos and cast it into the Maw. Cue Edge of Night. The Jailer manipulates Sylvanas into thinking the Arbiter sent her to hell, when really it was him. Sylvanas takes the bait blindly.

Cue Patch 9.1/9.2, where Sylvanas will throw another childish tantrum once she realizes she was merely just a pawn. Too bad she didn't read all those interviews where Blizzard said the JAILER is the main villain of Shadowlands. Pecking order, that's all. Goodbye Sylvanas.

I mean, Blizzard is not even that secretive about it. Anduin literally tells her "What makes you think you are not just another weapon?", to which Sylvanas literally does NOT reply. She just walks away. The writing is so on the wall that it's leaking into the adjacent room.

[Zmagoslav]

Was it confirmed she was in the maw?
From what i remember all she saw was a lot of darkness.

[Super Dickmann]

No, and the OP consists of bait.

Krastinov, the WoW version of Doctor Mengele who didn't just endorse human experimentation but carried it out on thousands, someone called Zil'kee the World Reaper, and Thogro the Devourer, a Galactus pastiche that ate whole systems all got sent to Revendreth. Vashj, who was on side with Azshara who wanted to end the world first on behalf of the Legion, then N'zoth, didn't even do a pit stop there, but went directly to Maldraxxus and there's a chance that Kel'thuzad did as well.

Pre-Cata Sylvanas is morally in the clear compared to those listed, so is post-Cata Sylvanas pre-retcon and even current Sylvanas has less of a body count than a planet eater and hasn't done the more personal, sadistic kind of villainy to the extent of Krastinov. Hell, even working on behalf of someone wanting to end existence still just puts her in the ballpark of Vashj and Kael, with Vashj having worked under one more type of world ending Satan than either Kael or Sylvanas.

Now, it could be Blizzard are just inconsistent or that the Shadowlands operates on the same kind of morality where genocide is a drop in the bucket, but the raising and enslavement of one dude is anathema provided that dude is of proper lineage. Varodoc's take on what will follow is however the much likelier one by an order of magnitude.

[Zmagoslav]

No, and the OP consists of bait.

Krastinov, the WoW version of Doctor Mengele who didn't just endorse human experimentation but carried it out on thousands, someone called Zil'kee the World Reaper, and Thogro the Devourer, a Galactus pastiche that ate whole systems all got sent to Revendreth. Vashj, who was on side with Azshara who wanted to end the world first on behalf of the Legion, then N'zoth, didn't even do a pit stop there, but went directly to Maldraxxus and there's a chance that Kel'thuzad did as well.

Pre-Cata Sylvanas is morally in the clear compared to those listed, so is post-Cata Sylvanas pre-retcon and even current Sylvanas has less of a body count than a planet eater and hasn't done the more personal, sadistic kind of villainy to the extent of Krastinov. Hell, even working on behalf of someone wanting to end existence still just puts her in the ballpark of Vashj and Kael, with Vashj having worked under one more type of world ending Satan than either Kael or Sylvanas.

Now, it could be Blizzard are just inconsistent or that the Shadowlands operates on the same kind of morality where genocide is a drop in the bucket, but the raising and enslavement of one dude is anathema provided that dude is of proper lineage. Varodoc's take on what will follow is however the much likelier one by an order of magnitude.

You see, that's the thing... it's not the bodycount or the morality of actions in the character's lifetime that places them into an afterlife.
It's the personality based on which they decided where they might be the most useful to the machination of the afterlife.

Those who showed a liking to sadism are sent to Revendreth to get a nudge into the right direction. Either they end up being the torturer (if they break) or an anima battery (if they don't swallow their pride).

Sylvanas on the other hand was put trough a lot, but instead of swalowing her pride she just kept going down deeper into the rabbit-hole.
The afterlife in WoW is not about deserving something, but rather about being useful in one way or another.
Somehow she was either:
1) put into the maw due to the arbiter being broken
2) deemed useless

We know she saw Arthas there at the time, and we can confirm Arthas is within the Maw now. This is also canonically where her deal with the Jailer began, so it would be hard pressed to say she's anywhere else.

When a kyrian comes to take a soul to the afterlife the soul gets to relive their death. That could very much be what she saw... (either her 1st,at his hands, or 2nd death, just before she jumped off she saw him on the floor)

[mysticx]

It could well be trickery, since the maw is only for souls even the Venthyr can’t beat any sense into, being sent there directly is unlikely, but considering how childishly easy it was for Mueh’zala to arrange Sylvanas’ promotion to warchief, some outside influences on her during that moment in Icecrown are very much a possibility.

[Super Dickmann]

You see, that's the thing... it's not the bodycount or the morality of actions in the character's lifetime that places them into an afterlife.
It's the personality based on which they decided where they might be the most useful to the machination of the afterlife.

Those who showed a liking to sadism are sent to Revendreth to get a nudge into the right direction. Either they end up being the torturer (if they break) or an anima battery (if they don't swallow their pride).

Sylvanas on the other hand was put trough a lot, but instead of swalowing her pride she just kept going down deeper into the rabbit-hole.
The afterlife in WoW is not about deserving something, but rather about being useful in one way or another.
Somehow she was either:
1) put into the maw due to the arbiter being broken
2) deemed useless


When a kyrian comes to take a soul to the afterlife the soul gets to relive their death. That could very much be what she saw... (either her 1st,at his hands, or 2nd death, just before she jumped off she saw him on the floor)

I see your point about them being sorted by their utility and if you apply that lens, then the Arbiter's decision making actually coheres pretty well. I don't think it's intentional, but it definitely passes the smell taste better than the alternative.

For example. if you use the personality + actions lens, the Arbiter deems certain activities or attitudes to be sinful and puts you in Revendreth. Based on unclear criteria she can also skip over this and punt you directly to Mald, like with Vashj or possibly Kel'thuzad, though the latter is up in the air. This is iffy if you go on the basis of it being a moral judgment, but from one of utility and how appropriate and useful one would be in that realm, it's easy to sort. A narcissist who's attached to their prior cause would not be able to handle Maldraxxus very well or be able to be part of a concerted front when it comes to fighting the other cosmic powers as they might switch sides. Vashj, who was a follower in all cases, would be able to adapt. Their actions are similar, but one is able to be of more use to the Shadowlands in one realm, while the other needs modification.

In that sense, sending anyone to the Maw is a bad move. Someone who is actually too committed to his views to budge, like Garrosh, can still be kept around indefinitely as a battery. But I'm hard-pressed to see Sylvanas fitting in the Maw organically even in that lens, since if she couldn't budge, she'd be useful as an anima sink and if she could she'd definitely be more useful pound for pound than say, Blanchy or a cat.

[Varodoc]

all of this is straight on point but i don't think they will be just throwing away sylvanas anytime soon. i think we're probably gonna get some kind of kerrigan redemption type of thing

That will be reserved for Arthas, as he is way more popular and iconic than Sylvanas, and will obviously show up eventually. It is also not a coincidence that Anduin is currently lost in the Maw, the same place where Arthas is.

Arthas Menethil was always the Warcraft character closest to Sarah Kerrigan anyway.

But don't think I want that to happen. If it were up to me, I'd skip this filler expansion and go straight into the Light and Void cosmic conflict.

[cparle87]

That will be reserved for Arthas, as he is way more popular and iconic than Sylvanas, and will obviously show up eventually. It is also not a coincidence that Anduin is currently lost in the Maw, the same place where Arthas is.

Arthas Menethil was always the Warcraft character closest to Sarah Kerrigan anyway.

But don't think I want that to happen. If it were up to me, I'd skip this filler expansion and go straight into the Light and Void cosmic conflict.

"Filler". You use that word. But I don't think it means what you think it means. Tell me, is every paragraph of the Lord of the Rings not about huge armies fighting or the Ring making its way to Mount Doom filler to you as well?

[huth]

In that sense, sending anyone to the Maw is a bad move. Someone who is actually too committed to his views to budge, like Garrosh, can still be kept around indefinitely as a battery. But I'm hard-pressed to see Sylvanas fitting in the Maw organically even in that lens, since if she couldn't budge, she'd be useful as an anima sink and if she could she'd definitely be more useful pound for pound than say, Blanchy or a cat.

Remember that up until the disabling of the Arbiter, Anima wasn't exactly a rare resource, so keeping somebody around as a battery only would simply have been a waste of space.

How sinners end up in other places than the Arbiter should be sending them isn't really that big a question when one remembers which Covenant leader is in league with the Jailer.

[Varodoc]

first of all, no. second no. arthas is undeniably gonna get a redemption but that doesn't mean sylvanas wont either. they aren't mutually exclusive. she's one of the few remaining original warcraft characters. they could just kill her off, but saying arthas is the most like kerrigan is just fuckin stupid. arthas' story is literally that of darth vader, sylvanas is little more complex than that.

"One of the few remaining original Warcraft characters"

Jaina
Thrall
Turalyon
Alleria
Khadgar
Falstad
Muradin
Danath
Tyrande
Malfurion
Shandris
Greymane
Baine
Uther
Kael'thas
Vashj
Illidan
Alexstrasza
And the list goes on...

Why do some people keep saying this, like are we playing the same game or...?

Arthas is way more similar to Kerrigan, especially now that we know the Jailer was a presence in the Helm, which means he was not fully himself as the Lich King. Meanwhile Sylvanas always had her free will, they have nothing in common.

[Varodoc]

im talking about the original warcraft characters from the rts. greymane is not one, kaelthas, lady vashj have been dead for years, but please go on

Greymane first appeared in the manual of WC2 along with the other leaders of the Alliance of Lordaeron, so Greymane actually predates Sylvanas Windrunner, who was introduced only in WC3.

Baine first appeared in the Rexxar campaign of WC3.

It doesn't matter if Kael'thas and Vashj are dead in-universe, because they quite clearly are not dead storywise. It's the entire point of making an expansion set in the realm of the dead.

Okay, I'll go on if you insist:

Kel'thuzad
Chen
Rexxar
Rokhan
Maiev
Gazlowe

[bagina]

As far as Shadowlands rules go? No she didn't, at the time of Wotlk and still didn't at the time of BfA. Why? Because a soul who "Who wiped out entire worlds." got sent to Revendreth. Entire worlds. That's more than 100 Teldrassils. That's all you need to know really. Nothing else needs to be said. Canonically, in WoW's universe, your crime is irrelevant, what matters is your REMORSE. So people saying that at certain body count you become irredeemable don't know what they're talking about.

That said, at this point it looks like the Jailer himself brought her to the maw so whether she deserved it is not important. But right now I'm wondering if she wasn't first sent to Revendreth or other afterlife but forgot it. I hope we see some flashback to her first meeting with the Jailer.

[Varodoc]

"GREYMANE WAS IN THE GAME MANUAL" rofl splitting hairs while trying to make your point just further proves my point. im done you're on my ignore list now

Since when was the Warcraft franchise confined to the PC games?

Yes, you can ignore me, just as you ignored Blizzard's canon, it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

[Yorimar]

Did Sylvanas deserve to be sent to the Maw?
yes, yes she did.

And why is she so different from others?
because she is a wahmen and blizzard probably got whispers from Anita Sharkeesian

[Lady Atia]

Arthas is way more similar to Kerrigan, especially now that we know the Jailer was a presence in the Helm, which means he was not fully himself as the Lich King. Meanwhile Sylvanas always had her free will, they have nothing in common.

Nope. She never had free will little voidsheep ....

[Varodoc]

you knew exactly what i meant, you're just making an argument in bad faith and i won't be replying after this post.
when those rts games came out there was no canon other than what happened during the gameplay. none of those characters had lore, there were no books, and thus, no retcons and no bringing dead characters in an afterlife scenario. at this point i should know better than to try and interact with 1 year old accounts with 7000 posts because this is what you all do. post nonsense repeatedly. have fun with your thread.

Or you can explain what you meant, since it's the internet and I can't read what's on your mind.

The manuals they release alongside the main game are just as canon, that never changed, and Blizzard never berated the canon of their manuals or novels. Also, you do know there WERE books back then, right? Like Day of the Dragon, Lord of the Clans, etc. These novels all came out before WC3.

Funnily enough, Vereesa was introduced in Day of the Dragon, and Alleria was introduced in the expansion of WC2, which means Sylvanas is actually the "youngest" Windrunner from a meta perspective, as she was introduced in WC3, after Alleria and Vereesa

Also, you do realize I created my account 3 years ago, right? If anything I'm slacking off, as 7.000 posts in 3 years is a low count, but then again I have a real life.

[bagina]

Also, why exactly are Sylvanas and Nathanos so cruel and ruthless, comparatively? Look at Alonsus Faol, Calia Menethil or Derek Proudmoore, they all suffered considerably, dying horrible deaths against their will, yet they are not angry, bitter, or raging at the world, they are still basically the same exact people they were in life.

Well, the real answer is because Calia is little miss perfect that can do no wrong and just another case of Blizzard breaking its own rules and shitting on forsaken. But that has been going on since the Death Knights were introduced. Also a healthy dose of "the good guys" bias. But if you want to be specific, neither Calia nor Derek were actually mind-controlled or forced to kill thousands for months on end. Funny how people always omit that *tiny* fact. Forsaken were broken, you don't walk away form something like this the same person. People saying how Sylvanas had "free will" but Arthas didn't are delusional. Arthas has alwys had free will. He had multiple occasions to back down. But he didn't. He's done his fair share of ugly stuff before donning the helm. If you imprison someone and drill a hole in their skull you will be changing that person forever, doesn't matter that you free them later. They are permanently changed. All Forsaken are like that.

[Ardenaso]

No, if she's a threat to the shadowlands I think like Gul'dan who destroys souls

Jaina
Thrall
Turalyon
Alleria
Khadgar
Falstad
Muradin
Danath
Tyrande
Malfurion
Shandris
Greymane
Baine
Uther
Kael'thas
Vashj
Illidan

Kel'thuzad
Chen
Rexxar
Rokhan
Maiev
Gazlowe

Nazgrel
Drek'thar
Drak'thul
Gar'thok
Kurdran
Akama
Mal'ganis