Masterloot should return

[rrayy]

No they didn't. They even said, they did it to *PREVENT* that, not that guilds were actually doing it.

Blizzard often fixes problems that don't exist.

That means it did happen. They never would have made the change if it didn't happen. They made the change because of all the complaints they were receiving about it.

[Tadkins]

What do you mean no options? Before the implementation of PL? Or pl/ml both being available?

That there were no PL guild options to join.

I know you would say "just make your own" but not everyone is cut out for guild leadership.

I'm not the greatest player and I hate how competitive this game has become. To this day I still wonder if I would even have a place here when/if I come back. I just want to be able to relax, kill bosses and earn loot without worrying about whether I'm "worthy" of it by meeting someone else's standard on a log or DPS meter or score on some third party website.

If ML came back I wouldn't even be able to do normals without that hyper competitive mentality permeating it.

[Kralljin]

Since it's a lottery system and not actually distributing loot, it doesn't sound anything like communism.

The lack of merit based rewards (ignoring any symbolic rewards) is another trademark of a communistic system.
Which, again, is awfully similiar to PL, because distribution cannot be influenced.

As a matter of fact, master loot is much more like communism since there is one governing body(the raid leader) dishing out loot how they think people deserve it.

Okay, who decides how much money you get for working?
The goverment or your citizen you call "boss"? (Assuming you don't work for Goverment).

Try talking to your boss about your payment, maybe you get a raise based on your performance, maybe not.
Ask the people who used to live in a communistic society how that discussion went for them.

To elaborate that, the goverment in that context is Blizzard, because they hold absolute power, not the guildleaders.

When Masterloot still existed, Blizzard gave players the freedom to distribute loot, which obviously led to people forming groups that distribute loot as they saw fit.
Similiar to how a goverment in a capitalistic society gives a person the right to found a company (Guild) and pay those employees (Raiders) as much as they want (putting stuff like minumum wage aside for simplicity).

However, because some people abused it and gave all the money (loot) to themselves, the goverment (Blizzard) went in and took that power away from people, now the goverment (Blizzard) sets how much loot a person gets when they kill a boss.

To drive that point even more:
Under Masterloot, when i don't like my payment (loot), i talk to my employer (guildmaster), when he says i don't get more, i can quit and look for better options.
Under Personal loot, when i don't like my payment, i can't do shit to change it, because any company (guild) pays the same.

By your logic, any company is in fact a communistic institution, because somebody at the top sets the rewards for the people under him.

You can't trade raid loot right now. So it's stopped happening.

Fun story from a friend of mine.

Guy plays an Offspec in M+.
Turns on Offspec for Item X in Raid.
Gets Item X.
He can trade it.
Guilds wants him to trade it.
He doesn't want to because he's using it in M+.
Drama ensues.

So no, it didn't stop.

[ruwshtyb]

No. I would like to see loot trading also goes away.

[Karda]

Most people that complain about master loot don't even raid mythic. Master loot should be an option for mythic raiding guild and the casuals can enjoy personal loot in their pugs.

Also, master loot was never about one person deciding. Most guilds, at least the ones that I was a member of, had a loot council and they were deciding who should get the loot based on the attendance, the % upgrade and other factors. Stop complain about a system that you don't understand only because you had bad experience with casuals.

On that note however, I would argue that master loot is good for pugs. Let's say that I am an experienced player with many kills but I miss only one item on heroic. If master loot was an options, I would make a group, saying that "X item is reserved" and I would take people and guide them through the fights. The moment master loot stopped being a think quality of pug groups declined rapidly and communities that sell boost services came to the surface even more. Good job, master loot is gone, now pay for your curve.

[Tadkins]

On that note however, I would argue that master loot is good for pugs. Let's say that I am an experienced player with many kills but I miss only one item on heroic. If master loot was an options, I would make a group, saying that "X item is reserved" and I would take people and guide them through the fights. The moment master loot stopped being a think quality of pug groups declined rapidly and communities that sell boost services came to the surface even more. Good job, master loot is gone, now pay for your curve.

I remember the days before the change, during WoD and HFC. I would see all of the group listings basically say "LFM H HFC, every single thing in the raid even remotely worthwhile reserved". And those were just the ones upfront about it; you'd hear plenty of stories about pugs switching the loot at certain bosses, ninja'ing, and then disbanding.

I would only support Master Loot returning for 100% guild groups, and only for Mythic raiding. But for now I am glad to not have to worry about joining a raid and getting screwed.

[Karda]

I remember the days before the change, during WoD and HFC. I would see all of the group listings basically say "LFM H HFC, every single thing in the raid even remotely worthwhile reserved". And those were just the ones upfront about it; you'd hear plenty of stories about pugs switching the loot at certain bosses, ninja'ing, and then disbanding.

I would only support Master Loot returning for 100% guild groups, and only for Mythic raiding. But for now I am glad to not have to worry about joining a raid and getting screwed.

When the leader enables master loot all the member must click "accept" before in actually happens. Noone will ninja anything and no leader will switch to master loot and ninja an item. You didn't answer my point however, are you happy of the quality of pugs? Most people buy the curve simple because no good players have any reason to help an unexperienced player.

[Tadkins]

You didn't answer my point however, are you happy of the quality of pugs? Most people buy the curve simple because no good players have any reason to help an unexperienced player.

There are still plenty of good pugs out there. Just because a few "good players" don't want to host pugs because they can't hoard all the good loot doesn't mean you still can't pug content and clear it today.

I'll admit that I didn't know about that first point though. Haven't actually pugged anything since MoP, can't bring myself to for personal reasons. But the truth is, Blizz probably made the change solely to cut down on the number of tickets regarding loot.

[Karda]

Exactly, instead of making the system better they decided to remove it completely. Master loot was a good system, you just need to fine-tune it so its more fair and open for everyone.

And for the love of god, master loot should be allowed for guild runs! That is why the system was designed in the first place. If you don't want it just find a guild that doesn't use it, there were plenty of those back in the days when master loot was a thing. When you are in the guild, every piece of loot that drops its not personal and it should be given to the person that would help the guild the most, period.

[Schmeebs]

Exactly, instead of making the system better they decided to remove it completely. Master loot was a good system, you just need to fine-tune it so its more fair and open for everyone.

And for the love of god, master loot should be allowed for guild runs! That is why the system was designed in the first place. If you don't want it just find a guild that doesn't use it, there were plenty of those back in the days when master loot was a thing. When you are in the guild, every piece of loot that drops its not personal and it should be given to the person that would help the guild the most, period.

ML causes an actual cost to Blizzard in terms of customer service burden (Ninja Looters, guild bullshit, etc) with personal loot, that burden is lessened.

IN addition, adding back ML would turn the world first race into even more of a clown fiesta.

[Tadkins]

It was a good system if you were in the inner circle of the guild leadership, or a spectacular player that the guild deemed most "worthy" of loot.

How can you "fine-tune" the system to be more fair and open in that sort of instance?

As I said I would be fine with Master Loot being only for 100% Mythic guild groups. The minute you invite that trial or pug outside of the guild, it swapps to PL. I would be fine with that sort of compromise. Much of the corruption and abuse happened with heroic and below raiding and micromanaging loot at that level isn't at all necessary.

[Karda]

Yeah I agree that it was mostly abused at the low bracket of the competition were is not even necessary to exist. It should be a think though for mythic raiding guilds. I also agree that it was introducing problems to pugs and an extra workload to blizzard. So the solution is to remove it? If a feature of my product is problematic I should aim to solve it!

I was never "part of the inner circle" nor an exceptional players, up until cataclysm at least. I didn't get items that I should. Should I blame ML for that? No! I blame the bad leadership of the guilds that I was a member of. I understand that most people had bad experiences, I had my fair share but the problem is not the system is the people and the mentality.

[MidnyteTV]

There were SO MANY guilds that would basically bully people into giving away the loot they got. So Blizzard took away trading too. You can thank all of the toxic guilds out there for that.

Any hard evidence of this?

Im so sick and tired of the same unsibstantiated BS arguments. If guilds were so terrible, why dod they stay? Or why dodnt they stsrt their own guilds that didnt "steal" or harass people? Why?

[Tadkins]

I blame the players for corruption and abuse too. I recognize that Master Loot facilitated and allowed them that option though, and I can be happy that it's gone simply so that there are less avenues for the players to engage in corruption and abuse.

I am one of those that have had plenty of bad experiences with that sort of thing too.

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Im so sick and tired of the same unsibstantiated BS arguments. If guilds were so terrible, why dod they stay? Or why dodnt they stsrt their own guilds that didnt "steal" or harass people? Why?

There weren't always many options for people to go to, and not everyone is cut out to build and lead a guild. I put up with it back in the day because it was the norm and I wanted to be able to see content, but it doesn't mean I liked it. I had no choice but to sit there and shut up, but fortunately that is no longer the case.

[Jastall]

Master Looter worked quite fine the vast majority of the time I'm sure... but not all the time. Not every guild screwed people out of loot, but some did. Other times people merely felt screwed out of loot when they weren't, but regardless, the simple fact that another player controlled access to their loot (on top of the usual RNG of drops) can feel really bad when you're starved from upgrades. I remember cursing the system a lot in ToS when it took me almost two months to complete my tier set; we were at like 5/10M before I could finally finish it with something other than Normal drops. A friend of mine was in a shit Heroic guild that hoarded loot for the council like no tomorrow and took advantage of the fact most of their players were casual and not that experienced with the game thinking it normal. I had to point that out to him myself.

This obviously led to more load for Blizzard RE support. I'm fairly confident that part of the reason PL was forced was to stop loot drama tickets from flooding their GMs every so often, especially early in a tier. Ultimately its pros weren't worth its cons, both for Blizzard and for a number of players who were/felt cheated by the system, and it got dropped.

[Karda]

So yeah, let's take it from the beginning. What was the problem with master loot?

1) People ninja-looting in pugs: Disable ML in pugs, there should be no reason that the system exists there. However, you still need to have a way of "luring" good players guiding newbies, currently there is no reason for a player who is mythic raiding to join a heroic group and wipe because people do not know tactic.
2) Raid leaders/council fetching items on the "inner circle"? Cultivate a mentality in the community so that the loot distribution is fair. Enable a penalty system, were if a guild receives an X number of votes from members in the raid group they get a penalty and they are not allowed to use master loot anymore.
3) Word first race: That is not a clown fiesta, it is the most completive form of raiding. Introduce more challenges so that players have to play better instead of reducing the amount of available loot in order to challenge them.

It is 2AM and I thought of 3 solutions that aim to address you concerns. Are you seriously telling me that a multi-million company cannot address these issues in a better way?

[Tadkins]

1) People ninja-looting in pugs: Disable ML in pugs, there should be no reason that the system exists there. However, you still need to have a way of "luring" good players guiding newbies, currently there is no reason for a player who is mythic raiding to join a heroic group and wipe because people do not know tactic.

Why exactly is this necessary? I don't think mythic players need to be lured into heroic pugs, unless they want to be there. Then they can play on the same footing as everyone else in regards to loot.

2) Raid leaders/council fetching items on the "inner circle"? Cultivate a mentality in the community so that the loot distribution is fair. Enable a penalty system, were if a guild receives an X number of votes from members in the raid group they get a penalty and they are not allowed to use master loot anymore.

That sounds needlessly complicated. Just easier to not have the option of master loot. It's worked out fine enough.

3) Word first race: That is not a clown fiesta, it is the most completive form of raiding. Introduce more challenges so that players have to play better instead of reducing the amount of available loot in order to challenge them.

Meh I don't really care enough about this one. I don't pay attention nor care about the world first race.

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It is 2AM and I thought of 3 solutions that aim to address you concerns. Are you seriously telling me that a multi-million company cannot address these issues in a better way?

I think they already did.

[Karda]

Nope they didn't. ML should be an option as it was in the past. It's only an option. If you don't want it, don't use it. Play your game with people that have the same mentality as you and are in the same level as you. If nothing bothers you, continue playing your personal loot game.

[Tadkins]

And if there's no options out there for a personal loot guild, or there are so few that they're incredibly hard to find in a world where ML is accepted as the norm?

[Karda]

I am sure if PL is so much better as you say, you will find plenty of people to create a guild that plays with PL. If not make your own with all those people in the comments that root against ML. It sounds to be that you are afraid of something else that you are not saying out loud though..