Theory: Sylvanas knows Yogg-Saron is the Secret Evil Overlord of the Shadowlands

[AbalDarkwind]

Hello everyone! This is going to be a long post, so if you want to TL;DR, it's at the bottom.

So, as I've come back to WoW in 8.3, I've spent some time pondering Sylvanas' motives, both long-term (As far back as Wrath) and short-term (Her actions as Warchief in BfA and her actions to open the Shadowlands to Azeroth). Sylvanas is too popular of a character, both with the greater fanbase and with the dev team (I know many of you will disagree with the former, but I think it's hard to ignore how much the greater WoW community likes her) for her to come out as the ultimate villain in this expansion. In fact, there's been some general speculation that she's doing what she's been doing for a greater purpose. The fact that those players who chose to side with her continue her storyline after abandoning the Horde bolsters this idea, and I think we will see this storyline play out in Shadowlands, ultimately showing that these players chose correctly in the long term.

Now, just to point out, I am nota Sylvanas fan, and I ultimately chose Saurfang in game, but I think this would make sense, given her actions and where Blizzard seems to be taking her story.

Ultimately, I believe this started, as many of you may as well, with her Edge of Night story post-Wrath. Although we didn't know it at the time, I think it is clear now that the dark, scary "hell" Sylvanas went to after killing herself was the Maw. Considering the Maw is meant to those who are completely irredeemable, I think it's hard to argue that Sylvanas deserved this fate at this point in her career. She openly fought the Lich King, although her hand in the Battle of the Wrathgate likely meant she warranted something like Kael'thas received: a "Purgatory"-like Realm, either Revendreath or Maldraxxus. I'd argue this is evidence that the mechanism of Death broke in Wrath as we know Kael'thas, who died late-TBC, went to Revendreath while Illidan went to Helheim. There are only two events that could have caused this in Wrath: the death of Yogg-Saron or the death of Arthas.

However, there are two points that, I think, refute that it was Arthas' death, and several points that bolster that it was Yogg-Saron's death that caused this. The first is that Sylvanas saw Arthas in Edge of Night as a scared little boy. Why would he be there, scared and a child, if it were his death that broke the mechanism of the Shadowlands? The other is the eerie quote by King Terenas to Arthas in his final moment "No King Rules Forever". Yogg-Saron says this almost exact same thing during his encounter in the Brain Room with Arthas and Bolvar: "He will learn... no king rules forever; only death is eternal!". This seems to point to the idea that King Terenas' spirit was corrupted by Yogg-Saron at this point in time. Blizzard mentioning that there was meant to be an explicit connection between the Lich King and Yogg-Saron, although it may have been too subtle for players would support this idea.

As for what hints that Yogg-Saron's death caused this, there are quite a few. First, his titles: The Beast of a Thousand Maws and the God of Death. The first has an obvious connection with the Maw while the latter has an obvious allusion to his power over Death, even though he shows no mastery of necromancy in Wrath. This is further bolstered by his "Only death is eternal!" quote, an obvious allusion to death and the afterlife. There are also other quotes that point to Yogg-Saron having an influence in the afterlife. These include a whisper in Whisper Gulch in Howling Fjord "There is no escape. Not in this life, not in the next.", which is ominous and self-evident. The Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron has two quotes that are relevant, including "Even death may die" and "All places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured.", both of which point to the possibility of Yogg corrupting the afterlife. Finally, another two quotes that may be relevant is one quote Yogg says during the Garona/King Llane encounter in his Brain room "A thousand deaths... or one murder." and "Your petty quarrels only make me stronger.". Both could imply that all deaths empower him.

Finally, there's a couple moves that Yogg has made over the eons that also could imply that he has power in the Shadowlands. The first is that he has corrupted an alternate reality before: he created the Emerald Nightmare in the Emerald Dream before N'Zoth took control of the corruption post-Yogg's death. The other is the fact that Icecrown Citadel was made of living Saronite, and we now know it is a mirror to Torghast, Tower of the Damned. That seems deliberate in hindsight.

So, if all of these things tie into Yogg-Saron, essentially, being released through his death to corrupt the Shadowlands, what does this have to do with Sylvanas? Sylvanas' primary motive, from her inception to Arthas' death, was to get revenge against Arthas. Once completed, she committed suicide, which, eerily, was on to a spike of Saronite. Her death and her experience in "The Maw" gave her a new purpose. First was to prolong her unlife through the Val'kyr. The next was her eagerness to join Garrosh's war in Cataclysm, to kill as many as possible using the Blight. After that are her actions as Warchief, and more specifically, her actions to save the Forsaken in Stormheim in order to spare them death. Finally, there are her actions in BfA, beginning with the Burning of Teldrassil, to cause as much death as possible, even welcoming the death caused by N'Zoth and the Black Empire. Furthermore, we know she has grown significantly more powerful using an unknown form of Death magic. Why would she try to kill as many as possible, condemning them to the Maw, and try to save the Forsaken? Both the feed the power and grow the army of her patron, the Jailer, and to save the Forsaken from having to fight the the war in the afterlife. She, of course, eventually gives up on that goal, focusing on continuing to kill as many as possible.

What's the Jailer's motive in all of this? This is mostly speculation, but I think it fits with the above. I think his title is literal, and as we know he is an extremely old entity, has likely been in this role for eons. His purpose is to be the Jailer of the Damned in the Maw. His goal isn't to escape, but rather, to contain the evils of the Maw. However, when Yogg-Saron died and came to the Maw, he was overwhelmed and sought help. That help came in the form of Sylvanas, and he told her to kill as many as possible to bolster his army in the Maw to fight Yogg-Saron (Who was also growing more powerful by devouring souls in the Maw), and in exchange, he would give her enough power to destroy the Helm of Domination, and opening the afterlife to the champions and armies of the living. That will lead to the plot of Shadowlands, where I think we will oppose Sylvanas and the Jailer (They may even be raid bosses) until we discover that Yogg-Saron was the ultimate Secret Evil Overlord and has been corrupting the Shadowlands since his death in Wrath. Sylvanas will have been right, without going "Kerrigan", as her methods will remain controversial.

TL;DR: Yogg-Saron's death caused his spirit to be released to corrupt the Shadowlands, Sylvanas found out about it in the Edge of Night short story, and she has been working against him, with the Jailer's help, ever since.

What do you all think? Am I reading too much into it? Or do you think all of these hints and connections are too hard ignore, like I do?

[Varodoc]

That is an intersting theory, though I despise the idea of Sylvanas secretly having good intentions, the way you tied Shadowlands with WotLK is good. However, they already confirmed at Blizzcon that:

1) They are not continuing the Sylvanas Loyalist questline, she does not care about her former Loyalists.

2) The engine of Death broke around the time of Legion, not WotLK. Sylvanas going to the Maw is what the Arbiter wanted. Already in Classic she was doing very evil things like experimenting on the living or waging war on humans, whom she called an "infestation".

Also I would argue that thousands of ghostly night elf civilians wouldn't really be of much use against an Old God.... just saying. So if Sylvanas wants an army to oppose Yogg-Saron, she might want to rethink her strategy.

[Amnaught]

I think this is too intelligent for Blizzard's writing.

Yogg-Saron is definitely the enemy of Sylvanas, but his role is probably less important.

[TickTickTick]

That is an intersting theory, though I despise the idea of Sylvanas secretly having good intentions, the way you tied Shadowlands with WotLK is good.

I generaly despise the idea of "I'm literally the only person in the universe who knows it!" giga-galaxy-brain anyone. There are so many theories about Sylvanas and most of them include her having some never-before-seen truth.

Why would someone like her know such things? Let's remember that the Shadowlands aren't tied to Azeroth, but to the universe as a whole. Come to think of it, it's already ridiculous that by doing something on Azeroth (shattering the helm) she unleashed the Shadowlands upon the whole universe. And of course, it's only Sylvanas who knows it. Cause why not.

We've already had a whole expansion of Sylvanas and her "all according to plan", "they are playing right into my plan", "it might look grim, but just wait for the fruits of my plan", just mystery after mystery, almost as annoying as Dutch. It's already bad that all the imaginable evil decided to strike just now, in the span of few years, I don't think the health of the lore would endure THE person that knows something that millions throughout the millenia never figured out.

Next thing you know, she was the child of Light and Shadow that Xe'ra seeked. I miss the times when Sylvanas was just a banshee, an elf that was unlucky to meet Arthas the Death Knight.

[AbalDarkwind]

That is an intersting theory, though I despise the idea of Sylvanas secretly having good intentions, the way you tied Shadowlands with WotLK is good. However, they already confirmed at Blizzcon that:

1) They are not continuing the Sylvanas Loyalist questline, she does not care about her former Loyalists.

2) The engine of Death broke around the time of Legion, not WotLK. Sylvanas going to the Maw is what the Arbiter wanted. Already in Classic she was doing very evil things like experimenting on the living or waging war on humans, whom she called an "infestation".

Also I would argue that thousands of ghostly night elf civilians wouldn't really be of much use against an Old God.... just saying. So if Sylvanas wants an army to oppose Yogg-Saron, she might want to rethink her strategy.

So, first of all, thank you for the compliment! Now, to address your three points. First, I had not heard they are not continuing Sylvanas Loyalists questline, but frankly, they don't have to. If Sylvanas was right, they're right in hindsight. As for the mechanism of Death breaking during Legion, I've heard that, too. I really can't refute that, unfortunately, but I do find it circumspect considering her actions in Edge of Night and Cataclysm. Finally, as for killing all those Night Elf civilians, you're right that it doesn't grow the army in the afterlife, but it may feed both the Jailer and Sylvanas more power for their Death magic.

I think this is too intelligent for Blizzard's writing.

Yogg-Saron is definitely the enemy of Sylvanas, but his role is probably less important.

Haha, thanks! We'll see, but I definitely think that many of these are too connected to be all coincidental.

I generaly despise the idea of "I'm literally the only person in the universe who knows it!" giga-galaxy-brain anyone. There are so many theories about Sylvanas and most of them include her having some never-before-seen truth.

Why would someone like her know such things? Let's remember that the Shadowlands aren't tied to Azeroth, but to the universe as a whole. Come to think of it, it's already ridiculous that by doing something on Azeroth (shattering the helm) she unleashed the Shadowlands upon the whole universe. And of course, it's only Sylvanas who knows it. Cause why not.

We've already had a whole expansion of Sylvanas and her "all according to plan", "they are playing right into my plan", "it might look grim, but just wait for the fruits of my plan", just mystery after mystery, almost as annoying as Dutch. It's already bad that all the imaginable evil decided to strike just now, in the span of few years, I don't think the health of the lore would endure THE person that knows something that millions throughout the millenia never figured out.

Next thing you know, she was the child of Light and Shadow that Xe'ra seeked. I miss the times when Sylvanas was just a banshee, an elf that was unlucky to meet Arthas the Death Knight.

It's not so much that she was super-smart but rather, that she died, saw what was happening, and was brought back by the Valk'yr. She also did it at the right time; this isn't a millenia old mystery. The mechanism of Death broke recently, either in Wrath, like my theory postulates, or in Legion, as has been mentioned at Blizzcon. She died, realized that Death wasn't an escape but an eternity of torment for literally everyone, and was brought back with that knowledge and the power offered by her ally to prepare to fight it.

I understand your sentiment that it makes Sylvanas a hero in ways that snub other, more outwardly performing heros. I think that's a valid criticism of the path she's on. However, given how much time Blizzard has given to develop her and her grand plan, I think is where they're taking it.

[Steelangel]

I think this is too intelligent for Blizzard's writing.

Yogg-Saron is definitely the enemy of Sylvanas, but his role is probably less important.

He's less important because he's Dead. Yogg isn't a thing anymore.

[qwerty123456]

So Sylvanas teams up with another Old god and potentially dooms the entire planet as well as possibly turning Azeroth into a void titan just to fight a different one?

[Mirishka]

That was a lot of words for a connection that isn't there. There's no 'Sylvanas was a hero!' twist coming.

What she has become isn't her fault (Arthas, obviously), but Sylvanas is evil. Period. She burned Teldrassil to kill the hope of the Night elves. And she forced a dying elf to watch as punishment for defying her, then raised said dying elf into undeath to do her bidding - just like Arthas did to her. These are not the actions of a hero working 'undercover' to stop a big bad.

Its depressing that this even needs to be said (again) but you don't get to burn thousands of people alive (many of them children) and then get to say 'BUT IT WAS FOR A GOOD REASON!' She's one of the most evil, self-serving characters in the lore.

And the amount of reaching people try to do to justify the insane shit she has done (becuz waifu Sylvanas) is one of the most cringe-inducing things about this game's community.

[Rustedsaint]

Wrong, yogg is dead according to blizzard, the jailer is anew character according to blizzard.

[Kithelle]

I generaly despise the idea of "I'm literally the only person in the universe who knows it!" giga-galaxy-brain anyone. There are so many theories about Sylvanas and most of them include her having some never-before-seen truth.

Why would someone like her know such things? Let's remember that the Shadowlands aren't tied to Azeroth, but to the universe as a whole. Come to think of it, it's already ridiculous that by doing something on Azeroth (shattering the helm) she unleashed the Shadowlands upon the whole universe. And of course, it's only Sylvanas who knows it. Cause why not.

We've already had a whole expansion of Sylvanas and her "all according to plan", "they are playing right into my plan", "it might look grim, but just wait for the fruits of my plan", just mystery after mystery, almost as annoying as Dutch. It's already bad that all the imaginable evil decided to strike just now, in the span of few years, I don't think the health of the lore would endure THE person that knows something that millions throughout the millenia never figured out.

Next thing you know, she was the child of Light and Shadow that Xe'ra seeked. I miss the times when Sylvanas was just a banshee, an elf that was unlucky to meet Arthas the Death Knight.

Because for them Sylvanas is bae waifu, they're desperate to make her sound selfless, heroic, and smart...they say she is playing 5D chess when she is nothing but a selfish impulsive fool who has things fall in her lap often.

[AbalDarkwind]

He's less important because he's Dead. Yogg isn't a thing anymore.

Death doesn't mean much in an expansion about the afterlife or about a god styling itself the God of Death.

So Sylvanas teams up with another Old god and potentially dooms the entire planet as well as possibly turning Azeroth into a void titan just to fight a different one?

No. Sylvanas teamed up with Azshara, not N'Zoth, and Azshara aimed to kill N'Zoth using the dagger given to her by Sylvanas. Sylvanas just wanted more death; the death of N'Zoth was a bonus. She never intended, nor expected, N'Zoth to win.

That was a lot of words for a connection that isn't there. There's no 'Sylvanas was a hero!' twist coming.

What she has become isn't her fault (Arthas, obviously), but Sylvanas is evil. Period. She burned Teldrassil to kill the hope of the Night elves. And she forced a dying elf to watch as punishment for defying her, then raised said dying elf into undeath to do her bidding - just like Arthas did to her. These are not the actions of a hero working 'undercover' to stop a big bad.

Its depressing that this even needs to be said (again) but you don't get to burn thousands of people alive (many of them children) and then get to say 'BUT IT WAS FOR A GOOD REASON!' She's one of the most evil, self-serving characters in the lore.

And the amount of reaching people try to do to justify the insane shit she has done (becuz waifu Sylvanas) is one of the most cringe-inducing things about this game's community.

That's not much of a refutation. Sylvanas has, clearly, been developed by the devs over the long term, especially since Legion, and I find it hard to believe that Blizzard would make her an outright villain. Now, I don't think you're wrong in your criticism that her actions are pretty evil (Again, I supported Saurfang, so I can relate), butI don't think Blizzard would allow us the choice to side with an outright villain, either. Her story is going to be complicated, and she'll have people arguing whether she's a hero or a villain for a long time afterwards. It'll make the "Garrosh did nothing wrong" crowd look tiny in comparison.

Wrong, yogg is dead according to blizzard, the jailer is anew character according to blizzard.

As said above, death doesn't have much meaning in an expansion about the afterlife. I also never implied the Jailer wasn't a new character. I explained that I think he's opposing Yogg-Saron, who died and began corrupting the Shadowlands.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

"Omg Yogg Saron? Blizz is lazy reusing old bosses"


It will come up eventually.

[Nerovar]

I think we will see this storyline play out in Shadowlands, ultimately showing that these players chose correctly in the long term.

Yeah... No. There's no way that even Blizzard would be stupid enough to create a story in which they outright tell the player that committing genocide is A-OK as long as you do it for the right reasons.

You're most definitely reading too much into it.

[Mirishka]

Yeah... No. There's no way that even Blizzard would be stupid enough to create a story in which they outright tell the player that committing genocide is A-OK as long as you do it for the right reasons.

You're most definitely reading too much into it.

This right here.

[TickTickTick]

It's not so much that she was super-smart but rather, that she died, saw what was happening, and was brought back by the Valk'yr. She also did it at the right time; this isn't a millenia old mystery. The mechanism of Death broke recently, either in Wrath, like my theory postulates, or in Legion, as has been mentioned at Blizzcon. She died, realized that Death wasn't an escape but an eternity of torment for literally everyone, and was brought back with that knowledge and the power offered by her ally to prepare to fight it.

I understand your sentiment that it makes Sylvanas a hero in ways that snub other, more outwardly performing heros. I think that's a valid criticism of the path she's on. However, given how much time Blizzard has given to develop her and her grand plan, I think is where they're taking it.

Are you implying noone else has been brought back from death? There are literally countless Forsaken / Scourge. Then we have Odyn and his Halls of Valor, Helya and her realm, Wild Gods and the Emerald Dream, all pockets of Shadowlands, noone of them knowing anything.

I repeat - Shadowlands is not Azeroth only thing, it's universe thing. Millions, billions people died in the Warcraft universe somewhere, some of them were brought back, and noone else has a clue about Shadowlands and what's there?

[TheFirstOnes]

He's dead, and he's in a different afterlife.

That's that.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah... No. There's no way that even Blizzard would be stupid enough to create a story in which they outright tell the player that committing genocide is A-OK as long as you do it for the right reasons.

You're most definitely reading too much into it.

*Looks at Kerrigan*

[AbalDarkwind]

He's dead, and he's in a different afterlife.

That's that.

What's your reasoning for him being in a different afterlife?

Are you implying noone else has been brought back from death? There are literally countless Forsaken / Scourge. Then we have Odyn and his Halls of Valor, Helya and her realm, Wild Gods and the Emerald Dream, all pockets of Shadowlands, noone of them knowing anything.

I repeat - Shadowlands is not Azeroth only thing, it's universe thing. Millions, billions people died in the Warcraft universe somewhere, some of them were brought back, and noone else has a clue about Shadowlands and what's there?

No one else has escaped the Maw other than Sylvanas and, come Shadowlands, the player. We're called Maw-Walkers for that reason. That's already happened.

[Nerovar]

*Looks at Kerrigan*

Okay. Nevermind. You've got me by the balls. Blizzard really is that stupid.

[Darknessvamp]

I think you're definitely giving Blizzard too much benefit of the doubt with the Yogg-Saron connection, although we know there was meant to be something between the Old God and Lich King back in WotLK I highly doubt that this new plot line intends to extrapolate or conclude on that. Especially as how thrown together it feels with them having to retroactively establish Sylvanas and the Jailer's contact/relationship from an event that is wholly void of such a thing which occurred in a side story nearly nine years old now.

*Looks at Kerrigan*

And people keep asking why she gets brought up in comparison to Sylvanas.

[TheFirstOnes]

What's your reasoning for him being in a different afterlife?



No one else has escaped the Maw other than Sylvanas and, come Shadowlands, the player. We're called Maw-Walkers for that reason. That's already happened.

My reasoning is that Blizzard themselves said so...

https://www.wowhead.com/news=296046....user-and-r-wow
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_danuser_and/

The Old Gods are "dead", though more might either come from the great dark, they could come back from their afterlife.

When Mortals die, they go to the Shadowlands. When Demons die, they're sent to the Nether. And when the Old Gods die, they're sent back to their masters in the Void.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay. Nevermind. You've got me by the balls. Blizzard really is that stupid.

It really is a shit story.

- - - Updated - - -
@Nerovar

Also, this:

"Question: With BFA, we have the option to support Saurfang or Sylvanas. Do you feel like that was a success? Did that work out how you wanted? And might we be seeing more of that in Shadowlands?

"Answering: Steve Danuser

"We knew that when we were making Battle for Azeroth that it was going to be an expansion that tested people's feelings and loyalties. And again, putting these two sides against each other in a way that really hadn't been done to that degree in WoW yet, so far. And knowing that what we were doing with Sylvanas, where she was going into the Shadowlands, all this time, she's been doing these things in BfA because we knew where she was going to end up. It's hard when you can't yet connect the dots for people, you have to kind of set that trajectory in motion. So we knew that, well, it's going to look bad for Sylvanas; people are going to take some of this stuff wrong, but we have to stick to this."

^ Keep what I bolded out from the statement in mind...