Is it Time to Bring Back Primary Stats?

[TbouncerT]

No, cause that would reintroduce the problem of int plate. Having an entire section of the loot table dedicated to holy paladins was terrible. Changing specs is a thing that is meant to be easy, having to carry around a second full set of gear for your offspec instead of just a weapon/trinkets/legendary and any miscellaneous pieces with better itemization was not fun.

I remember being quite happy when defensive stats were removed and baked into str/stam/crit. No more having one entire bag filled with my ret gear, it went down to only being 3-8 pieces I had to carry around per spec (depending on the expansion, for the most part prot/ret have had the same stat priorities throughout the expansion, so trinkets+weapon were the only major difference between gear for each spec).

This omg this. I was enjoying Classic again until I started doing dungeons as my paladin. I get flack for "stealing" cloth/leather gear from them. Goes to show who didn't play back then, but still makes you feels like crap.

If they were to bring it back, the would have to rework everything and that will be hard as people get set in their ways. This also hurts hybrids and (more so) plate wearers, since they can wear everything.

[deenman]

Ah yes, the return of Hunter Loot.

funny as the concept was with hunter loot,the reality was more like holy paladin loot,folowed by warrior loot,hunters had zero oportunity for it as they really wanted that intelect agility mail,maybe some really really strong leather,but not much

[Jonnusthegreat]

Yes, because otherwise iLvl wouldn't translate to power as directly. You're pretty much describing why it is needed here.

Why not? /10

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think we need to remove secondaries at all. Reforging was fine and yes you did it to every gear piece that dropped but....that "problem" is already there with gear slots that have enchants on them(Its worse for those that have their rotation deeply connected to some secondaries like haste).

[meroko]

the irony of this post is that for the first time in several expansions, our primary stat is worth more than our secondary stats. Meaning if you find a piece of gear that's 10 ilvls higher and the lower ilvl has your best secondary stats, the 10 ilvl higher piece is still better because of how little you need per point of a primary stat.

[Lefrog]

The primary stats in classic rpgs have just been broken out into secondary stats.

AGI or DEX usually give you crit..well now you have crit chance.

They even tried to add more interesting stats like armor pen/extra swing chance/expertise...but found the system needlessly complicated when you had a billion stats to sim out. The simple system works and is easy to understand. Primary stat makes everything hit harder, versatility is a pvp/make things hit harder, crit chance for chance at big dmg, haste for faster stuff, and mastery which is a per spec modifier to make things interesting.

I wouldn't be opposed to more flexibility in how they distribute it tho. I do agree with OP that static primary values are kinda boring. Would love to choose between ilvl200 with 50str, 50mastery, 50crit and an ilvl200 with 45str, 70mastery, 70crit for instance. It could make things interesting for those classes that scale better a certain way.

[Tharkkun]

Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.

Why would you want crit? Why would you want mastery? Because they do something interesting. Primary stat does not.

Primary stat affects everything. Just like people have been crying about versatility, it too is boring but increases everything you do just like agi/str/int. iLevel exists for budgeting secondary stats.

[Razion]

Isn't there already a problem with balancing secondaries with dynamic effects to all be equal across all specs? Specs as they stand now usually favor specific stats and not many have the freedom to use different stat builds. Primaries having new functions would be cool, but we already have many secondaries that can contribute to new builds that mostly aren't at a level can be considered fit for use by those who want to be optimal but who may still want more gameplay options in the specs they like.

[Ragnarohk]

All I ask for is spirit.

The ability for healers to chose if we want to stack throughoutput or mana regen. After all, we are the only ones that have to space out our main resource.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Primary stat affects everything. Just like people have been crying about versatility, it too is boring but increases everything you do just like agi/str/int. iLevel exists for budgeting secondary stats.

My point is that if primary stat was removed from the game and the calculations from ilvl took place behind the scenes (like they pretty much already do), nothing would change. The ilvl budget also affects primary and stamina budgets - except it's static and boring. Versatility is exciting to get only because that it's NOT on every piece at the same exact value. It doesn't do something exciting, but people want it for its power. Primary stats currently do nothing that a flat ilvl increase could do. In its current iteration, all primary stats could just be renamed to 'Player Power.' There is already no difference between strength, agility, and intellect on any piece except trinkets and weapons.

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the irony of this post is that for the first time in several expansions, our primary stat is worth more than our secondary stats. Meaning if you find a piece of gear that's 10 ilvls higher and the lower ilvl has your best secondary stats, the 10 ilvl higher piece is still better because of how little you need per point of a primary stat.

It's not ironic - this post has nothing to do with how powerful stats are in relation to others. It's that having a primary stat is meaningless, since, as you said, it's just ilvl that does it.

[schwank05]

Bring Back Armor Penn and Blood DK DPS and Ill be a happy camper.

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the irony of this post is that for the first time in several expansions, our primary stat is worth more than our secondary stats. Meaning if you find a piece of gear that's 10 ilvls higher and the lower ilvl has your best secondary stats, the 10 ilvl higher piece is still better because of how little you need per point of a primary stat.

Still depends on the class and the Item I gladly wear my 184 Ring on my DK becasue it has 100+ Mastery and the 207 Ring I have does not have Mastery on it the slight increase to stam is not something I care about.

[huth]

My point is that if primary stat was removed from the game and the calculations from ilvl took place behind the scenes (like they pretty much already do), nothing would change.

Did you miss the last two expansions? Or, for that matter, rings? It would immediately change things. A flat iLvl increase alone will not ensure that an item is an upgrade; it needs to have a stat that is guaranteed to provide more power in all situations and directly tied to iLvl to do that.
A higher iLvl ring with the wrong secondaries may very well be a downgrade, possibly a significant one.

Boring isn't really a valid argument here, either. They're not meant to be interesting. They're meant to provide enough of a power base that higher iLvl pieces are likely to be upgrades even with less than perfect secondaries.

[Tradu]

But if the formula is completely related to itemlevel with zero differentiation, is it needed? It's an added redundancy.

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Sounds like an argument to remove all secondaries from the game to me.

Yes, because primary stat increasing is what forces you to use higher ilevel pieces. Secondaries grow extremely slowly in comparison. Ilevel on its own doesn't do anything.

[huth]

Still depends on the class and the Item I gladly wear my 184 Ring on my DK becasue it has 100+ Mastery and the 207 Ring I have does not have Mastery on it the slight increase to stam is not something I care about.

Rings don't have primary stats. That's kinda the thing here that the OP keeps missing.

[Dwimmerlaik]

That's a hard no from me. It'd serve absolutely no real purpose.

[Tradu]

My point is that if primary stat was removed from the game and the calculations from ilvl took place behind the scenes (like they pretty much already do), nothing would change.

Except rings/necks show why that doesn't work. Without primary stat you're much more likely to equip lower ilevel items, which goes against the purpose of ilevel(to show that an item is more powerful). Ilevel on its own doesn't do anything, the significantly faster growth of primary stat based on ilevel(compared to secondaries' slower growth) does. They could make secondaries grow faster with ilevel to compensate, but you'd still have the issue of people dropping a lot of ilevel for better secondaries, and we'd go back to starting expansions with 5% of each secondary and ending at 80%(like Corruption except without needing Corruption).

[Jonnusthegreat]

Did you miss the last two expansions? Or, for that matter, rings? It would immediately change things. A flat iLvl increase alone will not ensure that an item is an upgrade; it needs to have a stat that is guaranteed to provide more power in all situations and directly tied to iLvl to do that.
A higher iLvl ring with the wrong secondaries may very well be a downgrade, possibly a significant one.

Boring isn't really a valid argument here, either. They're not meant to be interesting. They're meant to provide enough of a power base that higher iLvl pieces are likely to be upgrades even with less than perfect secondaries.

You are correct, except with pieces that are not jewelry and weapons. For all other pieces (9 of them), primary stat is a direction reflection of itemlevel. Every helm, shoulder, cloak, chest, bracer, gloves, belt, pants, and boots of the same itemlevel will have exactly the same primary without exception. That's why I think the system needs to change. It is uninspired and uninteresting. It is exciting to see secondary values interact with each other. I would love to see some exception in primary as well.

I think boring is a fully valid argument when discussing things people do for fun. Getting gear is interesting for a lot of people. Currently the only choice being made is secondaries. I would love for a little more excitement in gearing.

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Yes, because primary stat increasing is what forces you to use higher ilevel pieces. Secondaries grow extremely slowly in comparison. Ilevel on its own doesn't do anything.

Itemlevel determines stat budgets for Armor, Primary stat, Stamina, Critical Strike, Haste, Mastery, Versatility. Only secondaries get to deviate - that is what I don't like. Armor, Primary stat, and Stamina could be hidden completely and it wouldn't matter. The game already does not tell you how primary stats affect your abilities.

[Tradu]

You are correct, except with pieces that are not jewelry and weapons. For all other pieces (9 of them), primary stat is a direction reflection of itemlevel. Every helm, shoulder, cloak, chest, bracer, gloves, belt, pants, and boots of the same itemlevel will have exactly the same primary without exception. That's why I think the system needs to change. It is uninspired and uninteresting. It is exciting to see secondary values interact with each other. I would love to see some exception in primary as well.

I think boring is a fully valid argument when discussing things people do for fun. Getting gear is interesting for a lot of people. Currently the only choice being made is secondaries. I would love for a little more excitement in gearing.

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Itemlevel determines stat budgets for Armor, Primary stat, Stamina, Critical Strike, Haste, Mastery, Versatility. Only secondaries get to deviate - that is what I don't like. Armor, Primary stat, and Stamina could be hidden completely and it wouldn't matter. The game already does not tell you how primary stats affect your abilities.

Luckily Wowhead does tell you that, so you can fix your lack of knowledge that way(and 99% of people don't really need to know more than "more primary stat = more damage/healing"). And even if you hide those stats, they still exist and fulfill their role, you've just made the lack of in-game information even worse. Like I really don't see what you're trying to achieve. Primary stat, stamina and armor serve a purpose. Removing them hurts the game, keeping them doesn't.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Didn't they make the actual armor your class wore give you a bonus in Wrath? I remember distinctly liking that decision because of all the drama leather loot caused to me wanting it as enhance in TBC, since many leather items like Vision of Sargeras were so damn good. But in wrath, you lost flat out 5% of damage or agility or something significant if you didn't wear mail in all armor slots. Didn't you have that as a healer?

Armour specialization was added in Cata. Dps Warrior BiS lists in WotLK have multiple Leather items each tier, and Agi cloaks/necks/rings are always better than their Str counterparts, because Blizzard gave Agi items more dps stats for the item budget compared to Str ones (and Str stuff tends to have more Stam = even less Dps stats).

[Jonnusthegreat]

Luckily Wowhead does tell you that, so you can fix your lack of knowledge that way(and 99% of people don't really need to know more than "more primary stat = more damage/healing"). And even if you hide those stats, they still exist and fulfill their role, you've just made the lack of in-game information even worse. Like I really don't see what you're trying to achieve. Primary stat, stamina and armor serve a purpose. Removing them hurts the game, keeping them doesn't.

It's not a matter of lack of knowledge. It's a matter of the game being better by adding flavor. Primaries are just flat stats that don't do anything that could be done through itemlevel - that's what I want to change.