Shadowlands doesn't feel like Warcraft

[Nerovar]

Because feelings are 100%, completely, and entirely subjective.

There seems to be at least some kind of intersubjectivity in regards to this issue otherwise the thread wouldn't have as many pages as it does.

There are similarities, and differences, just like every other expansion. When TBC came out a LOT of people said the same thing. And with legion. "space? wtf are we heading to space? is this warcraft or starcraft?"

I've never heard someone say "this doesn't feel like Warcraft" except for MoP and Shadowlands. We already saw Outland in WC3 so it wasn't really surprising to see that it looks very different from Azeroth.

You also intentionally oversimplified their comment to better suit your argument, which doesnt do your argument any good at all. And I would avoid using hyperbole in your reply as well, because quite clearly "every game ever" does not have humans, animals, plants and undead" so its kind of an unusual claim to make.

This is such a weird comment. Even a child would understand the hyperbole. Humans, beasts, plant people and Undead are incredibly common in fantasy universes. Therefor pointing out that they still exist in the newest Warcraft expansion cannot be an argument for why it should still "feel like Warcraft". What matters is whether the context in which these things are used within the Warcraft universes has changed. That's where the real discontinuity can be found. That's why people feel "cheated" or think this doesn't feel like Warcraft.

Take the undead for example. Prior to Shadowlands if you saw an undead it would have either been some kind of cursed being, a creation of the Burning Legion or Scourge (meaning an Undead aligned to the Lich King). Now we got an expansion with a zone full of Undead who look the part but possess none of the qualities that defined previous Undead. In fact you could probably exchange the entire zone aesthetic of Maldraxxus with something like the Valarjar and the story would still be functionally the same (you'd have to rename some things but at the end of the day it wouldn't really matter). It is the decoupling of aesthetics and the meaning that was previously tied to the aesthetic that causes people to go "this doesn't feel like Warcraft".
And I'm not even getting into the whole Undead in the afterlife thing when the definition of an Undead is a dead soul that is cursed to wander the mortal plane.

[jurgenaut]

I get what OP means. Shadowlands is a different plane of existence. Whatever happens there does not affect Azeroth directly. On a local level, we are righting wrongs. My hunter helps restore Ardenweald from the drought - though the inhabitants refuse to lift a finger. They've been letting it all dry up for years, it seems - and yet they give me anima by the truckload for the most menial of tasks (like collecting dirt for the sentient mushroom). Why do they have to give it to me so I can put it in the anima bucket rather than they do it directly?

We don't know what is the ultimate objective of Team Jailor. Let's say that Team Jailor wins, how would that affect things?

Would all living things:
A - Cease to exist
B - Continue to exist, but immortal and never have to go to the "mau"
C - Toil away in the mines of torment in the "mau" for all eternity
D - Half of all life is snapped out of existence
E - Everyone will be dead, but still alive at the same time

What happens to Azeroth:
A - Ceases to exist
B - Continues to exist, with merry woodland creatures and murlocs everywhere
C - Continues to exist and be invaded just in time for next expansion and the horde to be evil again
D - Continues to exist and be invaded just in time for next expansion and the alliance to be evil for once
E - Sargeras sword revives C'thun - but chaosy rather than voidy - and we finally get a new old god expansion

The stakes are just... unknown. We have been tasked to - possibly - save all of creation from something unknown happening to it - that could actually make everything better (at least Sylvanas thinks so). And we are somewhere we didn't know existed to do it. It's like Damon Lindelof and JJ Abrams wrote the damn script.

[Kallor]

I get what you feel OP, because I feel the same. I wish we'd stay on Azeroth for some expansions now, and instead update the zones there. Maybe intricate questlines with rpg options (including dialogue options like SWTOR) in the various capitol cities?

[Venziir]

They dropped the ball by making each of the shadowlands "races" be their own thing. They should have been variants of the existing races.

Blue skinned and winged Dwarves
Sickly looking pale Orcs
Horned and hooved Night Elves
Red eyed and fanged Goblins

It wouldn't have required major changes and could have kept them looking both uniquely "shadowlands" but still part of the setting as a whole.

Well we already have pale, sickly orcs and elves with horns and hooves. That said, the goblin looks hilarious - like the female gremlin from Gremlins 2.

[huth]

There seems to be at least some kind of intersubjectivity in regards to this issue otherwise the thread wouldn't have as many pages as it does.

Don't be silly. This forum has proven hundreds of times that people can argue for weeks about completely subjective matters.

This is such a weird comment. Even a child would understand the hyperbole. Humans, beasts, plant people and Undead are incredibly common in fantasy universes. Therefor pointing out that they still exist in the newest Warcraft expansion cannot be an argument for why it should still "feel like Warcraft". What matters is whether the context in which these things are used within the Warcraft universes has changed. That's where the real discontinuity can be found. That's why people feel "cheated" or think this doesn't feel like Warcraft.

Not in games in general, however, as the claim was. The rest is simply an assertion that something has changed, which is itself subject to debate.

[Nerovar]

Don't be silly. This forum has proven hundreds of times that people can argue for weeks about completely subjective matters.

Do you know what the term intersubjectivity means?

Not in games in general, however, as the claim was. The rest is simply an assertion that something has changed, which is itself subject to debate.

It was a very obvious hyperbole. Taking that "claim" at face value means you're either being pedantic or obtuse. I don't really see the point in arguing like this.

[Th3Scourge]

You have whole Maldraxxus which is basically Scourge stuff cranked up. Then you have the progenitors of Valkyr.

That is already plenty.

Maldraxxus is like some Chinese knock-off mobile game of The Scourge. They basically took a dump on WC3 - WotLK lore to create some manufactured connection

- - - Updated - - -

People love to complain about WOD a lot. But I really don't know if it was as bad as it was painted. From Warcraft lore POV, WoD starts off with a bang. It is a literal blast from the past - albeit admittedly in a rater far fetched way. The raid encounters ( Blast Furnace, Blackhand, Gorefiend, Archimonde etc) were absolutely sublime.

Where WOD lacked was content outside raid. Tanaan was meh and there was nothing to do but raid and log. But if you add some of the modern WoW things in WOD like M+, flex raid and some WQ/calling/Lootbox thing to WOD, it suddenly will become a way better expansion.

Oh god, Tyrannical Nectrotic Grimrail Depot......

Say what you want about WoD, it screamed Warcraft. You can tell Metzen had a lot of fun putting the concept together. It's a shame it didn't work out

[Ielenia]

"There are humans, animals, plants and undead - must be Warcraft". Every game ever has these. Doesn't mean that anything other than Warcraft actually feels like Warcraft. It's the design of those things that doesn't feel like Warcraft. I honestly have no idea why this is so hard to understand for some of you.

Maybe because I don't see this disconnection people claim exist? I look at all the zones, and I see Warcraft in all of them. I kinda understand the "zones are not connected" in the physical sense angle, as you can't go from Bastion to Maldraxxus while on your ground mount, but even then it's not that big of a deal for me.

As for design... it still feels very "Warcraft" for me. What, exactly, does not "feel Warcraft" to you, and why?

[huth]

Do you know what the term intersubjectivity means?

I know that you're missing the point. We have entire threads that are just people repeatedly stating their opinions, disguising them as fact, and not actually engaging in any meaningful discussion with one another.

It was a very obvious hyperbole. Taking that "claim" at face value means you're either being pedantic or obtuse. I don't really see the point in arguing like this.

There's a difference between hyperbole and making a completely incorrect claim. Hyperbole is saying "every game" when you just mean "many games". Saying "every game" when you mean "common in fantasy" isn't hyperbole, it's a misstatement.

[Ielenia]

I mean it is a 16 year old game with a lore that is 20 years old. If they dont branch out the storyline and do the same old, same old, how stale do you think it will be?

Can you name anything in pop culture, any TV show or game that has lasted as long as WoW has?

I agree, both the Maw as well as Torghast are strongly Diablo influenced. But no MMO in gaming history has ever tried to bring roguelike dungeon crawl into their game. It is unique and will take some iterations to perfect it.

One piece. (Sorry i had to)

Dragon Ball, too. :P

- - - Updated - - -

Ardenweald is NOTHING like Ashenvale,

I didn't say Ashenvale. I said "Valsharah". Also, how is Ardenweald "nothing like" Ashenvale, or Val'sharah? Aren't both lands of lush and dense trees? Don't both places have next to no buildings and many live inside hollowed trees? Isn't Val'sharah a land of nature magic, too?

Maldraxxus is NOTHING like Plaguelands outside the most superficial things.

Because being "infested with undeath" and having the land scarred by necrotic magic is just "superficial"?

Saying they're the same

I never said they're the same, though.

is like saying this thread is the same as LOTR because both use mostly the same letters. It's ridiculous.

Hugely hyperbolic and false equivalence is hugely hyperbolic and false.

- - - Updated - - -

They dropped the ball by making each of the shadowlands "races" be their own thing. They should have been variants of the existing races.

Blue skinned and winged Dwarves
Sickly looking pale Orcs
Horned and hooved Night Elves
Red eyed and fanged Goblins

It wouldn't have required major changes and could have kept them looking both uniquely "shadowlands" but still part of the setting as a whole.

They didn't drop the ball.

Because Shadowlands is not Azeroth's afterlife. It's the entire universe's afterlife. So making all the Shadowlands races be variants of Azeroth races would make no sense.

[Chromell]

Did all other expansions feel like Warcraft to you? I have no quarrel with Shadowlands in that regard, this is a breath of fresh air to me, new settings, new racesm conflicts and interactions. I think we need a break every now and then from the big bads we've always known, especially given the direction the story writing has taken several expansions ago.

[Beatman]

Well, it's better than Legion space ships, imo.

[Orby]

Did all other expansions feel like Warcraft to you? I have no quarrel with Shadowlands in that regard, this is a breath of fresh air to me, new settings, new racesm conflicts and interactions. I think we need a break every now and then from the big bads we've always known, especially given the direction the story writing has taken several expansions ago.

I think for me personally I am just not interested int he theme. As much as I love the art and sound design for these new zones, because damn it looks beautiful, they just feel empty in substance, I don;t care about these covenants on a scale that I really want to. The lore in Shadowlands is just so boring. And I know thats a generic term, because its a beautiful looking expansion but I have lost all interest to want to hop back on again. I been telling myself maybe its burn out, but I know what burn out feels like I had that halfway through cataclysm, and I didn't come back until the end of MoP.

I still cannot put my finger on the major issue why I am no longer playing despite really wanting to come back, but I am struggling when it comes to interest. I haven't played for 3 weeks, and I don;t intend to return yet. Hopefully I do, but if this is the end for WoW for me, then its sad because I never planned to stop or showed any indication I was going to, I just one day didn't want to log on, and here we are three weeks later.

[Soon-TM]

Shadowlands feels like some new writers wanted to tell THEIR story, but to an existing Warcraft crowd. The whole expansion basically feels like they hijacked the setting.

Sounds quite likely. Maybe that explains why they've been retconning the everliving crap out of the pre-WoD lore, in order to "tell the story they want to tell", even if you could drive a truck through the plot holes they are leaving behind.

[Nerovar]

I know that you're missing the point. We have entire threads that are just people repeatedly stating their opinions, disguising them as fact, and not actually engaging in any meaningful discussion with one another.

There's a difference between hyperbole and making a completely incorrect claim. Hyperbole is saying "every game" when you just mean "many games". Saying "every game" when you mean "common in fantasy" isn't hyperbole, it's a misstatement.

You know jack shit as usual. What the hell are you even talking about? This thread is literally titled "Shadowlands doesn't feel like Warcraft". This isn't about ""facts"", it's about people's perception/opinion and lots of people seem to share the sentiments that were expressed in the original post. You sit here complaining about people not engaging in "meaningful discussion" like you're some kind of enlightened arbiter of online discourse when you're the one focusing on stupid and obvious hyperboles for the sole purpose of derailing the conversation. This is just incredibly silly to me. But go off, king.

[Dhrizzle]

Sounds quite likely. Maybe that explains why they've been retconning the everliving crap out of the pre-WoD lore, in order to "tell the story they want to tell", even if you could drive a truck through the plot holes they are leaving behind.

The cosmology and lore behind Shadowlands was laid down by Metzen in the Chronicles. You might not like the direction it's going but pretending Warcraft lore is a different story by new people is blatant bullshit, an attempt to turn "I don't like this" to "this isn't valid" so your feels are validated.

Think about the Silmarrilion, people who like the Lord of the Rings might get upset about it being all about spirits and mysticism and not just dwarves and elves wandering about forests but it's still part of the lore of Tolkien.

[huth]

You know jack shit as usual. What the hell are you even talking about? This thread is literally titled "Shadowlands doesn't feel like Warcraft". This isn't about ""facts"", it's about people's perception/opinion and lots of people seem to share the sentiments that were expressed in the original post. You sit here complaining about people not engaging in "meaningful discussion" like you're some kind of enlightened arbiter of online discourse when you're the one focusing on stupid and obvious hyperboles for the sole purpose of derailing the conversation. This is just incredibly silly to me. But go off, king.

And you're mostly busy misrepresenting arguments, so i'm not sure why you think you've got some sort of moral superiority that entitles you do talk down to others.

[Nerovar]

And you're mostly busy misrepresenting arguments, so i'm not sure why you think you've got some sort of moral superiority that entitles you do talk down to others.

I feel like you might be projecting a little, buddy. But feel free to point out where I've mispresented your arguments.

The cosmology and lore behind Shadowlands was laid down by Metzen in the Chronicles. You might not like the direction it's going but pretending Warcraft lore is a different story by new people is blatant bullshit, an attempt to turn "I don't like this" to "this isn't valid" so your feels are validated.

Think about the Silmarrilion, people who like the Lord of the Rings might get upset about it being all about spirits and mysticism and not just dwarves and elves wandering about forests but it's still part of the lore of Tolkien.

There's a big difference between laying out the cosmology as a background of the universe for people to read up on if they're interested and actually sending the player to "attack" the pillars of that cosmology. That being said, a lot of the things laid out by Chronicles have already been retconned by the current story team so the comparison to Tolkien's universe doesn't really work that well.

[Sunslayer]

I mean, isn't that...kind of the point?

The point of what? "Feeling Alien" is the point of a new expansion? How so? So, I played Kingmaker and the expansion is Kingmaker expanded and made better in the same mold. I don't want the Kingmaker expansion to feel like "A mobile game" I want Kingmaker+++ in an expansion.

Shadowlands feels like a cheap mobile game now, imo.

[Laerrus]

Previous expansions all added new places and creatures, but they brought existing elements there as well. You would find the classic races of Azeroth building settlements there, you'd see murlocs, goblin towns, human castles and so on.

A realm that is alien to us, should have unfamiliar things.

Bolvar and the Alliance/Horde leaders are already an essential part of the SL story. I am sure that they will continue to be a part of it into later chapters.