will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[Kralljin]

So it is your position that not wanting to play with clueless people is some how 'toxic'?

Declining people is nowadays considered "toxic", at least to some people.

[Seranthor]

Declining people is nowadays considered "toxic", at least to some people.

If that be the case, then I'll wear that label loudly and proudly.

[Sinaa]

To some vanilla raiders even the Lurker Below used to be too hard, how could the community not be as toxic as usual?

[Vakna]

There is nothing new, nothing to discover. So no, min/max culture is all that is left after you've already done it years ago.

[Hottage]

The toxic min/max culture wasn't a thing in vanilla but is in Classic, except perhaps at the very top end of the PvP ladder.

It's a symptom of playing a game so old that it's been mathematically perfected into minutiae by an over-zealous fanbase.

I have no doubt that Classic TBC will follow the same pattern of being a festering pit of min/max try-harding in every aspect from leveling to end-game content, should it ever be released.

[DarkAmbient]

There's already a bunch of levelling/prep guides for Classic TBC on YouTube. People are going to min/max the shit out of it.

I still remember the Joana guide I followed for levelling in Ghostlands, will probably still use that route.

[Echocho]

"Someone exhibiting behaviour that doesn't conform with my own world view"

No. No that's not correct. Toxic is closer to bullying, it's about what you say to other people. Being toxic is being purposefully mean.
Having differing views on things is normal. If I'm an atheist and you're a christian you're not toxic just because you don't share my views. If you start verbally assaulting me for being an atheist on the other hand you become toxic, not because you're a Christian but because you're a dick.

[T-34]

No. No that's not correct. Toxic is closer to bullying, it's about what you say to other people. Being toxic is being purposefully mean.
Having differing views on things is normal. If I'm an atheist and you're a christian you're not toxic just because you don't share my views. If you start verbally assaulting me for being an atheist on the other hand you become toxic, not because you're a Christian but because you're a dick.

Well if we go by your definition then the minmaxers aren't toxic at all as they have they don't talk to or have anything to do with those "that play for fun"/the wilfully bad. They might as well not exist for them.
But that is not the definition that the majority in this thread uses. They consider the minmaxers toxic because they don't play the game as they do. Which actually is more in line with the person you quoted.

[Diabloish]

So it is your position that not wanting to play with clueless people is some how 'toxic'?

I like how the guy I quoted said stuff like “fuck um” and called people “scrubs” for maybe not knowing as much about the game as them, and everyone is like, “yeah idk how this guy was toxic he just wants to play with like minded individuals” lol fuck sake people is it really that hard to see what I was pointing out.

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Yeah to be clear - i 100% agree with your sentiment, if not your articulation of it. I always have and always will be perfectly happy and 100% encourage players to play how they enjoy the game. I draw the line where any group tries to demand that everyone adjust to their style of play. Same goes for mythic raider wannabes who tell everyone to "git gud" then get called out for being some LFR dude.

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Can you have another go at wording that? Im happy to respond, just clear up what you are trying to say, maybe im not understanding it? My English is pretty poor, after all.

You still haven’t fixed your original statement or explained it, so I think we need to work on that first.

[Seranthor]

I like how the guy I quoted said stuff like “fuck um” and called people “scrubs” for maybe not knowing as much about the game as them, and everyone is like, “yeah idk how this guy was toxic he just wants to play with like minded individuals” lol fuck sake people is it really that hard to see what I was pointing out.

Nothing of what you said answered my question. In fact my question had nothing to do with that guy. Perhaps I should spell it out for you like your a 5 year old.

Are all the people that do not want to play with clueless people 'toxic'? Or just the guy you quoted? Who made YOU the arbiter of what is 'toxic'? Or do you have some vast experience with being toxic that you know toxic when you see it?

[Diabloish]

Nothing of what you said answered my question. In fact my question had nothing to do with that guy. Perhaps I should spell it out for you like your a 5 year old.

Are all the people that do not want to play with clueless people 'toxic'? Or just the guy you quoted? Who made YOU the arbiter of what is 'toxic'? Or do you have some vast experience with being toxic that you know toxic when you see it?

I’ll answer your question as simple as possible because it seems you’re a little lost yourself here sweet pea.

I never said it was toxic to not want to play with other people you find to be “of lesser skill”. I was pointing out how this guy was specifically acting, and calling him toxic.

You get it yet bud?

[Seranthor]

I’ll answer your question as simple as possible because it seems you’re a little lost yourself here sweet pea.

I never said it was toxic to not want to play with other people you find to be “of lesser skill”. I was pointing out how this guy was specifically acting, and calling him toxic.

You get it yet bud?

Not 'lost', just waiting for you to bother to answer the original question, which you finally got around to doing.

[Diabloish]

Not 'lost', just waiting for you to bother to answer the original question, which you finally got around to doing.

I didn’t really see how it needed to be answered when I responded with

I like how the guy I quoted said stuff like “fuck um” and called people “scrubs” for maybe not knowing as much about the game as them, and everyone is like, “yeah idk how this guy was toxic he just wants to play with like minded individuals” lol fuck sake people is it really that hard to see what I was pointing out.

Notice how I’m not criticizing him not wanting to play with others but specifically how he is acting.

Did that really need to be simplified for you?

[Heathy]

theres always going to be some level of min/max because ppl prefer to get better at the game rather than simply maintaining some status quo of under performing. I don't think it really matters if you're in a dad guild that takes 5hrs to clear bwl, but that isn't for everyone. some of us like seeing a raid team improve and clear content faster so there is time to do other things, like play other games.

if you started raiding in week 1 of classic you might have taken 2hrs to do molten core, in blue gear, after you've done that several times, you start to see some improvement. it reaches a point where you naturally want to see things improve, clearing molten core in 1hr? perhaps we can get that down to 45 minutes. etc etc. this is the foundation of min/max in a game that rewards better gear and therefore allows for greater output.

why would you want to still be having 2hr molten core runs 2 years later? effectively seeing zero improvement at all. once you've cleared the content all you really can do is try to do it better, improve on execution and the time it takes to get through it. that first week of naxx we did 4x 4hr raids, and only got to sapphiron. 3 weeks later kelthuzad died, and now we're at the point that we can clear the instance in one raid, not several raids, needing to come back multiple days or doing things like 1 wing per day. no no no, improvement is getting the content cleared so you have time to do other things. not be stuck trying to half -ass everything and then ending up missing loot because half your raid team is dead weight.

I think there is an obnoxious level of min max (world buff stacking) but there is also a level of min/max that you would expect to see from everyone (assuming you know how the game works and how to improve your class and role) if you want to get the content cleared and not end up having to carry the useless fucks who put in no effort at all. expect to get loot but can't be bothered to do the bare minimum to improve or increase their performance, if you don't wanna get better at the game, ask yourself why are you playing it? why bother playing a game in a competitive way if you have no intention of being competitive.


the min max in classic really became apparent around phase 5, when you have MC/BWL and AQ40 to clear each week, at the start i imagine ppl still wanted bindings and a couple items from raggy are pretty much BiS till the end. ideally if you're in a raid guild that raids 2 days a week, you have to clear the content in 2 days, not wipe fest for 3 days and miss half the loot because no one cares enough to be half decent at the game. there needs to be some level of enthusiasm and or motivation to do better.

if no one min/maxed in my guild we wouldn't be one of the top horde guilds on our realm. we wouldn't have all the horde top speed clears for each phase. but this does come down to the guild you join, you either join a guild that embraces the min/max and does whatever they can do to improve or you're not in one of those guilds in which case its irrelevant if all your guild does is expect you to show up, the min/max isn't going to be something that you're focused on, until the weeks of wiping happen, then ppl start to wonder why..

once you've done this content enough times you don't really want each raid to be a complete shit show. and the way you avoid this is by having most ppl put some effort into their character. after a few raids the content in classic does become faceroll with a co-ordinated raid, that is pimped from gear farming, why waste it, why settle for mediocre. the real fun to be had from classic was speed running the content because anyone can wipe fest through it. this week is speed run week because its DMF week, you get one chance a month to set a good record this is kinda casual really, one raid where everyone tries their best isn't really much to ask. but ofc even this is pointless if no one is trying to gear correctly or get their BiS.

[ryjkur]

Looking at replies here people are really toxic, already bashing TBC.

Community would most likely be 100% different than in retail. TBC is more community driven game than retail so I'm sure it's way more friendly chatting and behavior. I really hope to see good old rickroll meme talking and Mankriks wife general in Barrens

Seems like have serious TBC hate going on. Idk if they worry TBC will success over retail.

[Seranthor]

Seems like have serious TBC hate going on. Idk if they worry TBC will success over retail.

if it's released it will succeed, because it will be the same sub as classic and current. And the addicts and their rose coloured glasses will rush to play like they did when classic was released.

[arkanon]

Looking at replies here people are really toxic, already bashing TBC.

Community would most likely be 100% different than in retail. TBC is more community driven game than retail so I'm sure it's way more friendly chatting and behavior. I really hope to see good old rickroll meme talking and Mankriks wife general in Barrens

Seems like have serious TBC hate going on. Idk if they worry TBC will success over retail.

If you are suggesting TBC classic will attract a larger playerbase than retail, you are entirely delusional. If you are saying it will be a success in its own right - yeah, most likely. Its certainly more palatable to a larger audience than classic. The changes between Vanilla and TBC were dramatic, no doubt about it, but when compared to retail - there is a gaping chasm in regards to how the game plays, how the classes play, the viability of specs and classes etc. That will appeal to some, but there will absolutely without a doubt still be a factor of rose tinted glasses playing a part here, as with any older game.

As an example, i had a friend who didnt play in vanilla - he started quite late around the end of wrath. He was super excited about classic because of all the hype, got to 60, did some raids, and threw in the towel. Even without playing vanilla, it was the nostalgia from the community that seemed to be contagous to people who hadnt even played the game.

Another friend was over the moon that Command and Conquer was being remade. Was going to play it forever, day in day out - it was without a doubt going to be the main game he played. And as soon as it was released, thats exactly what he did - spammed that shit for 10 hours a day for 4/5 days, then has loaded it 3 subsequent times, without his /played increasing at all - he loads it up, plays a few minutes, remembers why he stopped, and stops again. I saw this with classic a fair bit too - log in very frequently, almost daily, but only hang around for 15-20 mins then log off.

tl;dr classic tbc would be popular, but nothing even remotely close to retail. Its likely they will release it in a content drought in retail, so it might have very high numbers for a few weeks, then it will taper off as expected. It will maintain a healthy population, and will do very well.

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if it's released it will succeed, because it will be the same sub as classic and current. And the addicts and their rose coloured glasses will rush to play like they did when classic was released.

Yeah, there will be a HUGE surge if they release it during a drought in retail, and i think it will appeal to more players than classic did, but i dont see player retention being dramatically better than classic.

[Garybear]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

That is just how the gaming community as a whole has evolved.

[MoanaLisa]

To answer the question of the thread:

No, it won't. People drive those things. Systems do not. People went on fucking endlessly about how vanilla was going to "bring back the community we remember from 2005." It didn't and neither will TBC. People play the way they play.

[Alatie]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

People in TBC were not toxic fucks? you must have been living under a rock back then people were toxic as all fucking hell during Vanilla, TBC and dont fall of your chair now WOTLK to.

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Looking at replies here people are really toxic, already bashing TBC.

Community would most likely be 100% different than in retail. TBC is more community driven game than retail so I'm sure it's way more friendly chatting and behavior. I really hope to see good old rickroll meme talking and Mankriks wife general in Barrens

Seems like have serious TBC hate going on. Idk if they worry TBC will success over retail.

TBC will success over retail like classic did till it dies like classic did during late AQ also i played Vanilla and TBC where you people get the idea people were not toxic is beyond me people were toxic as all fucking hell back then to.