will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[Kralljin]

Flame cap also gave a fire proc to your melee/ranged attacks so sorry but its not only for destro/fire mage.

From what i could gather, the procrate is fairly low, ranging from 200-500 damage total, not sure if that is worth giving up your HS in a world where defensive CD's and selfhealing are still rare.

spore snack, also worked on warlock, and when pets still very much would randomly die during boss fights, this buff was well worth it to warlocks/hunters.

Okay, what is the Meta pet for a Warlock in TBC?

A dead one, because 0/21/40 is the Meta spec.

Pet avoidance was not a thing in TBC, it was a TALENT you needed as a hunter... it was not default until wotlk then all classes that had pets (Druid hunter mage preist shaman) then got access to it, so no, in TBC only hunters had it, and it was a talent, not fucking worth it so sorry mate, do some research.

https://tbcdb.com/?spell=35700

As seen above, your regular warlock does not use a pet, the only spec that actually does use one is Demo and guess what:
https://tbcdb.com/?item=25469

yes... as i said requires herbalisim, so those who do have it would get them, but those who didnt didnt... thats literally what i said.

Considering that no one that actually does want to min/max will be Herbalism, that logic has a massive hole.

Is this another instance of you just wanting to be right for the sake of being it?
Because common sense suggests that this discussion is obviously about min/max that the community at large will do, people won't be rolling Herbalism to use Fel Blossom, they will roll LW + X (=With X being Tailoring, Blacksmithing, Jewelcrafting or Enchanting and maybe Engineering).

This item is for people to min/max that already made the choice to not min/max (which is obviously a contradiction), not to mention that it absorbs less than HS heals.

Yes, shares Cd with healthstones, but can be used ahead of time, almost like a pre-pot

Why would you pop a defensive consumable like this before the pull?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use when you need it?
Imagine running up to the boss, popping this item, not taking any significant damage within those 20 seconds, then suddenly dropping to dangerous health levels within the next 2-3 minutes and realizing your healthstones are on CD for another 2-3min.

yes? and? again, still you need them cause guess what? they have a differant use then healthstones

Charged Crystal Focus restores health.
Healthstones restore health.

They do the same thing.

you sound like the kinda person who would say "wow you brought fire and shadow resist potions to this raid? lol dont you know they share a CD!? looooool"
no, they have differant uses, so you bring em, even if they share cds

Fire Protection pots absorb fire damage.
Shadow damage protecion pots absorb shadow damage.

They do not do the same thing.

and yes, i used those as examples of how people will minmax... and your excuse is "lol these buffs are so little only minmaxxers would use em"
yeah... thats the point.

The point is that those are so insignificant that it won't spread to the community at large, which i assumed goes without saying considering most people have been talking about how the consumables usage and world buffs in Classic have spread to large parts of the community.

Nevermind that most of those won't even be used by min/maxers because they share a CD with something you can get for free from another class.

[SinR]

Short answer: No

Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooo

The "GOGOGO" is a staple of the modern MMO. This is evidenced by Classic be "Infected" with Min/Max and "GOGOGO"

We are never going to be able to go back to those days. ever. they're long dead.

[Dundebuns]

No. Classic proved that despite the content, the community is a pile of streaming fecal matter. If they do bring out TBC there will be min/maxers, elitists and a horrendous gogo mentallity still.

[FelPlague]

From what i could gather, the procrate is fairly low, ranging from 200-500 damage total, not sure if that is worth giving up your HS in a world where defensive CD's and selfhealing are still rare.

Okay, what is the Meta pet for a Warlock in TBC?

A dead one, because 0/21/40 is the Meta spec.

https://tbcdb.com/?spell=35700

As seen above, your regular warlock does not use a pet, the only spec that actually does use one is Demo and guess what:
https://tbcdb.com/?item=25469

Considering that no one that actually does want to min/max will be Herbalism, that logic has a massive hole.

Is this another instance of you just wanting to be right for the sake of being it?
Because common sense suggests that this discussion is obviously about min/max that the community at large will do, people won't be rolling Herbalism to use Fel Blossom, they will roll LW + X (=With X being Tailoring, Blacksmithing, Jewelcrafting or Enchanting and maybe Engineering).

This item is for people to min/max that already made the choice to not min/max (which is obviously a contradiction), not to mention that it absorbs less than HS heals.

Why would you pop a defensive consumable like this before the pull?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use when you need it?
Imagine running up to the boss, popping this item, not taking any significant damage within those 20 seconds, then suddenly dropping to dangerous health levels within the next 2-3 minutes and realizing your healthstones are on CD for another 2-3min.

Charged Crystal Focus restores health.
Healthstones restore health.

They do the same thing.

Fire Protection pots absorb fire damage.
Shadow damage protecion pots absorb shadow damage.

They do not do the same thing.

The point is that those are so insignificant that it won't spread to the community at large, which i assumed goes without saying considering most people have been talking about how the consumables usage and world buffs in Classic have spread to large parts of the community.

Nevermind that most of those won't even be used by min/maxers because they share a CD with something you can get for free from another class.

1. true, but its still a thing some needed to bring
2. felguard, there was of course mostly DS/ruin lock, but there was also felgaurd lock, and you also needed voidwalker/felhunter synergy for some fights where you needed to tank *cough illidan*
3. ahh the wowwiki article on it was a fucking mess, wowpedia was much more detailed.

In TBC it was hunter only, 25/50% based on rank, warlocks had it but only for felguard also 50%
Then in wotlk it became a talent for hunters, able to go up to 75%, while warlocks just default went to 90% passive, then being just made a right out passive in 3.3 where it became the usual 90%
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Avoidance_(passive)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Avoidance_(pet)

4.did ya really just ask "why would you pop a defensive cooldown before the pull" ya never heard of pre-potting? it works for both survival and dps items. get the cooldown going so that you can use it again later. Same could be said for dps potions "why not save your dps potion for hero!?" cause if you pop it before the pull, you can use 2 during the fight.

5. Yeah but ya didnt always have a warlock.

6. One gives an absorb shield, the other heals.
they do not do the same thing.

7. Never ever did i say it spread to the community at large, just that it was even more supported and more wild, especially at the launch of BC where you could stack ALL THE ELIXERS/FLASK which causes the community to become much more active with their flask/elixer use, i literally linked articles earlier of the mass complaints of the huge cost of running these exliers/flasks.

[embersglow]

Both sides will forever exist within the MMO community and have since many many years ago. There have always been min/maxers and there have always been those people who want to play the game for what it is and enjoy it. Both sides are entitled to play the game in the fashion they wish without being called toxic. Toxicity is created by thinking someone else is playing the game wrong because its not YOUR way regardless of which side the fence you are on.

Unfortunately since both Classic and now TBC originally launched leaps and bounds in the way we communicate have been made ie: discord, twitch, etc.. Now top that with the fact that they are both previously released content that I'd say a large percentage of the original player base either still plays or intends to return to try it. Plus the 13-16 years worth of knowledge accumulated and you have a formula for trivial content that will be stormed through by the min/maxers.

The information is there and publicly available why wouldn't a guild who wants to be the best use that to their knowledge? At the same time if you want to play the game with "no spoilers" 13 years later that is FINE but don't get mad when Jimmyyeetsdps from Top Guild #Doge2Mooon doesn't want you in his group because you aren't hit capped. You have different agendas and they don't involve the same style of gameplay. Are either toxic? No they aren't they are appealing to the demographic they intend to appeal to competitive players or casual.

TLDR : Its cool if you want to walk but you can't be mad someone got a cab.

[Echocho]

In order to have a toxic free in any old video game you need to travel back in time. Gamers are toxic now, most of them were raised by the Internet instead of their small local IRL community and the Internet is an awful parent.
Granted there are less toxic communities like FFXIV for example but that has to do with a certain type of people being drawn to Japanese culture and most of them have a more sensitive personality. No idea why, that's just the way it is.

[Sithalos]

I love how people still think that all the private server players on the classic realms are going to be less toxic.

I've got some bad news for you..

[Kumorii]

In order to have a toxic free in any old video game you need to travel back in time. Gamers are toxic now, most of them were raised by the Internet instead of their small local IRL community and the Internet is an awful parent.
Granted there are less toxic communities like FFXIV for example but that has to do with a certain type of people being drawn to Japanese culture and most of them have a more sensitive personality. No idea why, that's just the way it is.

Internet was always toxic...I would even say it has gotten better nowadays due to popularity of it and communities crack down on bad behaviours and developers banning toxic people. It was a free for all at the start where people thought they could get away with any vile language. Which they could.

[crakerjack]

Idk why people hate on maxing. I see it as a spectrum. On one side you have people who don’t care at all and on the other side you have class stacking. Play whatever you want, just play it right and as best as you can. There’s really no excuse to underperform. Like if someone is parsing 10-40% routinely, they’re the toxic one. When we do group content, it’s not just our time, it’s everyone’s time. That being said, I’m going to try my best and make sure I’m not a burden on my fellow raiders.

[Wilian]

Yes they existed but wasn't THAT common like now in retail.

It was, the metrics were just different

[deenman]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

imagine thinking that wanting to be efficient with your time (also in retail you are forced to do so because of timers)...is toxic

[ryjkur]

@ryjkur:
No, it will not. The same min/max gogogogo culture that took over Classic will take over TBC as well.
TBC as it was will never be again, same as Classic went.

We can only hope. Not everyone who plays Classic is interested in TBC. What might happen is completely "new" playerbase who plays/behaves like 2007 community and arent toxic minmaxers.

[kranur]

Toxicity will still be there because it existed since forever. It will be less aparrent and a more enjoyable experience because the game won't actually encourage you to skip as much as you can, rush as fast as you can and chain pull like a madman.
Also unlike retail, the groups won't require absurd amounts of gear from you, which are mainly for the reasons ststed above.
All of those are taken as facts from classic and tbc private servers.

[TrollHunter3000]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

Why in the fuck would min/max go away? And the only reason it was like that for you was because you were playing with shit players.

[anveena]

I hope not. A toxic community is fun in video games.

[T-34]

We can only hope. Not everyone who plays Classic is interested in TBC. What might happen is completely "new" playerbase who plays/behaves like 2007 community and arent toxic minmaxers.

Hmmm, could you please tell me what forces you to play with "toxic minmaxers" like me? I mean why don't you just make a nice guild with players like yourself or advertise for like-minded players when you make a group?
While I understand that you have a deep-seated disdain for players that enjoy to play in a way that you don't enjoy, I must admit I truly don't understand why you just can't ignore those players and play with others like yourself.

[GEICO gekko IRL]

I would like different version of Real Life where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

Fixt for ya buddy. A different version of WoW cannot and will not dictates peoples mentality lol

[Kralljin]

1. true, but its still a thing some needed to bring

Only if you were playing offmeta strats, faced a specific boss (which actually dealt enough damage to kill your pet) and possibly sucked at managing your pet.

2. felguard, there was of course mostly DS/ruin lock, but there was also felgaurd lock, and you also needed voidwalker/felhunter synergy for some fights where you needed to tank *cough illidan*

Sure, you could play that, but then again, you're not min/maxing and i still think it's pretty fucking stupid to discuss the optmization of non meta strats in a discussion that focuses on min/maxing of the Meta.

It's like discussing the optimization of Enhance or Ret dps in a discussion about the optimal raidcomp in Classic, sure you *can* optimize them, but when you actually optimize your raidcomp (which is the premise of the initial discussion), they wouldn't be present anyway.

And in regards to any Warlock tanking, do you actually believe people are going to need a Demo lock to tank all that, with Master of Demonology and SS?
Or are they just going to take a 0/21/40 Lock (which does far more dps over the course of an entire raid than a deep Demo lock), slap some resistance gear on them and just overheal them?
Especially with extreme likelihood of batching no longer being a thing, healing will get a lot smoother in TBC.

I highly doubt that the most optimal strat for Illidan will actually involve this.

4.did ya really just ask "why would you pop a defensive cooldown before the pull" ya never heard of pre-potting? it works for both survival and dps items. get the cooldown going so that you can use it again later. Same could be said for dps potions "why not save your dps potion for hero!?" cause if you pop it before the pull, you can use 2 during the fight.

Okay, first off, that thing is not on the potion cooldown, but on the Healthstone cooldown.

Second, the practice of prepotting wasn't introduced until Wotlk, in Classic / TBC, the only limit on pots was a 2min CD, you could pop as many pots as you liked if they encounter lasted long enough.
Which was introduced to reduce the amount of pots required for raiding.

Thirdly, popping defensive option on cooldown (or "pre potting" them) is still pretty damn stupid, you use them when you need them, they're not like dps CD's, where it's a gain to get as many usages as possible in a fight to maximize your dps.
Healers also don't open a fight by blowing their CD's, unlike dps where they usually use them right off the bat to get multiple usages into a fight.

Hence, using that thing before a pull is damn stupid, you use it when you drop low and need the extra hp, at which point there is basically no difference to using a healthstone.

5. Yeah but ya didnt always have a warlock.

Again, this argument really comes off from a desperate attempt to keep the discussion going for its own sake, Warlock is pretty much the Warrior of TBC.
If you're not bringing a Lock, you're not min/maxing.

Which again falls into the category of discussing methods of min/maxing when you're not min/maxing.

6. One gives an absorb shield, the other heals.

I'm confused, is this about the charged crystal focus?

Because that thing isn't absorbing anything.

Charged Crystal Focus
Binds when picked up
Use: Instantly restores 2000 life. The focus is also rumored to unlock special powers within possessed demons. Kronk in Ogri'la can likely tell you about this.

And if it's about Fel blossom, it goes back to point one, you need Herbalism to use that item, you're not min/maxing if you're Herbalism.

7. Never ever did i say it spread to the community at large, just that it was even more supported and more wild, especially at the launch of BC where you could stack ALL THE ELIXERS/FLASK which causes the community to become much more active with their flask/elixer use, i literally linked articles earlier of the mass complaints of the huge cost of running these exliers/flasks.

The consumable madness was already known in late Classic, TBC didn't fix it initially and introduced new ones (as expansions tend to do), Ion back in 2006 made even a decent post about it.

So even the claim the "TBC caused min/maxing" is false, that's Classic Naxx.

[Kathandira]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

TBC came out in 2007. Many WoW players were quite young at the time. The min/maxing and toxic attitude of today's gamers was still developing back then. But since players have been gaming online all that time, 14 year, they likely have grown more accustomed to min/maxing, and may have developed some of today's toxic traits.

So one should only expect the sort of folks of today's gamers to carry what we see today to the classic versions of the game.

If you do not want to deal with that, there is 1 fantastic option. Create your own guild with a set of rules that discourages that behavior. Or, if you are fortunate, you may find a guild with conduct rules that resonate with you. But do expect that there will be plenty of min/maxing, and plenty of try hard raiding guilds that will have some toxic personalities in them.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Seems that how Classic went down was the fault of Retail players now. Another year, another delusion in the Muhnilla crowd.

As if crazy min-maxing and speedrunning wasn't a thing on private servers looong before Classic came out.

You can always start a guild that's against min-maxing, speedrunning and "toxicity" yourself though.