Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[Nobleshield]

All of those things exist already once you're playing at keys that are hard for you.

But the timer still looms over you and makes you play sloppy to meet it. Which goes back to the timer being a huge reason for the toxicity and elitism seen in M+.

[Tradu]

But the timer still looms over you and makes you play sloppy to meet it. Which goes back to the timer being a huge reason for the toxicity and elitism seen in M+.

How does the timer make you play sloppy? It does the opposite. It forces you to play well, because you only have so much time and wipes can cost you the run. You need to kill priority targets, CC mobs that you can't deal with currently and avoid taking damage. It's literally what people are asking for, but for some reason people make it sound like the timer removes those things.

[ZazuuPriest]

Why don't you ask the guy saying dcs wouldn't matter for death count runs. How does that make any sense

because you can easily finish almost any run 10 or under if someone leaves the group unless its the healer or tank. so yes his suggested change would make it better for groups who have people leaving because they dont want an untimed key on their io. how is this confusing to you?

[RobertoCarlos]

because you can easily finish almost any run 10 or under if someone leaves the group unless its the healer or tank. so yes his suggested change would make it better for groups who have people leaving because they dont want an untimed key on their io. how is this confusing to you?

Its not confusing. If healer or tank dc's people will die. So dunno why you and the other guy think it will magically fix dc related issues

[ZazuuPriest]

Its not confusing. If healer or tank dc's people will die. So dunno why you and the other guy think it will magically fix dc related issues

it will fix not being able to complete a key when 1 person leaves because its based off deaths not time... like how long did it take you to learn the alphabet?

[RobertoCarlos]

it will fix not being able to complete a key when 1 person leaves because its based off deaths not time... like how long did it take you to learn the alphabet?

Sorry what does the alphabet have to do with mythic plus tuning now?

[ZazuuPriest]

Sorry what does the alphabet have to do with mythic plus tuning now?

it just seems like its really hard for you to grasp extremely simple concepts, i was just wondering

[RobertoCarlos]

it just seems like its really hard for you to grasp extremely simple concepts, i was just wondering

Ohok. Well at leasts its better than your usual "Its not an issue except for these examples im just gonna ignore because it doesnt fit my agenda"

[ZazuuPriest]

Ohok. Well at leasts its better than your usual "Its not an issue except for these examples im just gonna ignore because it doesnt fit my agenda"

I'm not ignoring anything. Im actually acknowledging that people DC or just leave a M+ if its a tank or healer the run is done now and its done under this guys idea. If its a DPS under the current time system the key is still likely done BUT if its under his idea then the run can still be 1/2/3 chested because its based off deaths. How is this hard to understand. Bold the part of the sentence that doesn't make sense to you so i can try to explain it clearly in your native language.

Do you need to consciously remind yourself to breathe?

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm not ignoring anything. Im actually acknowledging that people DC or just leave a M+ if its a tank or healer the run is done now and its done under this guys idea. If its a DPS under the current time system the key is still likely done BUT if its under his idea then the run can still be 1/2/3 chested because its based off deaths. How is this hard to understand. Bold the part of the sentence that doesn't make sense to you so i can try to explain it clearly in your native language.

Do you need to consciously remind yourself to breathe?

I mean your solution doesnt sound that great anyway.

Say someone leaves first pull and you wanna finish the run. You're gonna slowly slog through the entire dungeon 4 man JUST to pass the run? That sounds incredibly lame and I think there are better solutions out there. And most likely you're gonna lack the damage/interupts to not make the run a hell hole anyway

[Wondercrab]

If there wasn't a timer then people could just wait for cd's for each pull. So the answer is a resounding no.

This is something that gets brought up a lot, and I think it says more about how CDs in the game might need to be reworked than anything else. There are so many areas of WoW that have had timers and special rules put on them to account for this strategy, often to the detriment of the core experience. I don't think waiting on personal CDs for trash is a huge issue (a lot of the time you'll have some up for every pack, or every other pack, regardless), but the big one is Bloodlust. BL is just such a crazy powerful ability that it routinely forces the design to bend over backwards to accommodate for it.

I would gladly, gladly, see Bloodlust effects either deactivated or given special rules in M+ if it resulted in the timer going away. You could, say, only allow BL to be used on bosses and reset the cooldown at the start of each pull like it does in raids. But being able to use it on every single boss would make it even more mandatory, so perhaps only allow it to work on one boss during the run. Once you use it, you can only use it during that one encounter, then you're locked out for all the other bosses.

Honestly though it might just be easier to turn off Bloodlust mechanics in M+. Bloodlust is why M+ needs to be on a timer, and unless it gets changed the problem of "wait for CDs on every pull" will still exist. I'm all for the speedrun mode of M+ still existing so that folks can compete on leaderboards and do esports stuff, but it shouldn't be the only way of playing hard dungeons. Raids aren't on a timer, and they have special rules to accommodate for that. Ideally M+ should have similar rules.

[ZazuuPriest]

I mean your solution doesnt sound that great anyway.

Say someone leaves first pull and you wanna finish the run. You're gonna slowly slog through the entire dungeon 4 man JUST to pass the run? That sounds incredibly lame and I think there are better solutions out there. And most likely you're gonna lack the damage/interupts to not make the run a hell hole anyway

its not my idea, and you're right it wouldn't be a great experience, but at least it would still be possible to key a dungeon

[Tronski]

So cool, you don't have any answer.

There are people raid logging 6 hr weeks getting ce, I don't play much more than 10 hours a week and im sitting at 18s and some 19s.

You are lazy... enjoy your 7s and sitting on the forums qqing. Put in more effort... do higher content. Have more skill.... do higher content. Time is one of many factors and you seem to lack all of the above.

Cute. You think you are better than people because you tryhard with a few friends. M+ isn't hard, It's practice and gear. Saying anything else is just patting your own back.
But for most people who play with randoms it sucks to the point of not bothering that you get punished with a downgraded key if anything beyond your control goes wrong.

[T-34]

Raids aren't on a timer, and they have special rules to accommodate for that. Ideally M+ should have similar rules.

Raids are on a timer - it is called enrage.
If bosses didn't have enrage people would just stack tanks and healers and call it a day.
Virtually all content in WoW has a timer: Raids = enrage and mythic+. Even BGs, arena has a built in time factor. And therefore those activities have a built in pressure/dynamic and therefore make it challenging.

Let me add that even LFR has built in enrage, so even LFR which is made for... not the most skilled people to put in mildly... is on a timer - enrage.

[Elim Garak]

How about we have the timer - but it only ticks out of combat?

[Kumorii]

How about we have the timer - but it only ticks out of combat?

Pull an insignificant mob. Cc it and leave it there. Kill it wheb you need to rest, rinse repeat. Timers would need to be very very short.

[Wondercrab]

Raids are on a timer - it is called enrage.
If bosses didn't have enrage people would just stack tanks and healers and call it a day.
Virtually all content in WoW has a timer: Raids = enrage and mythic+. Even BGs, arena has a built in time factor. And therefore those activities have a built in pressure/dynamic and therefore make it challenging.

Let me add that even LFR has built in enrage, so even LFR which is made for... not the most skilled people to put in mildly... is on a timer - enrage.

That's not the same mechanic that's being discussed in this thread, though, and it would easily be solved by giving dungeon bosses enrages in M+. The issue with the timer in M+ is that it doesn't allow for downtime in between pulls.

[javen]

Easier? Sure. Less stressful? Okay. More enjoyable? Probably not.

You'd probably need to bump up the requirement for KSM too. Without a timer or any impetus for expedience or efficiency, instead of +10 and +15 being the reward tresholds, itd probably have to be closer to +15 and +20.

[Jastall]

I do think I'd enjoy it more without the fucking gogogogo attitude that has plagued this game since Wrath.

Timers are nice for comparing yourself to others, but it would also be nice to be able to finish a dungeon if the pug healer fucks off, or somebody disconnects, or you want to talent change to beat a boss. Invalidate the timer, definitely, but leave them with the same level key at the end as long as the dungeon got completed.

I think the only things that should downgrade a key are not finishing at all, and being able to manually downgrade when you put it in the key thing at the start.

I do think not timing the key should not degrade the keystone, giving you the chance to try again instead of dumping you back one level which is demoralizing, and add an option to intentionally degrade the key to whatever level you wish directly from the inventory.

The timer makes M+ an activity of high highs and low lows. Correctly executing an entire dungeon and timing a difficult key is immensely satisfying. Failing to time, even because of a small error sometimes, feels really bad. Widening the margin of error but punishing repeated mistakes even harder is the way to go if you ask me.

[Cierah]

I know several people who regularly complained about how they disliked the whole M+ experience because of the timer. I see their point but also see the use of the timer to keep things moving. Perhaps have a middle ground. Offer an option when inserting the key to either have the timer or no. That way if someone wants to take their time, allow for things like RL to happen, or if they want the go-go-go rampage they can. If no timer then definitely use a shared death pool to at least have a metric where the key goes poof. It allows player agency and serves both parties. People listing the groups would have a check box that says timer or no and is editable if after the group is forming they change their mind.
Sure there'll be some that moan about how if it isn't timed there shouldn't be the same level of rewards. A +10 is a +10 whether you romped through it or didn't. The affixes are the same, the mechanics are the same. The only difference is the time spent. Beating a timer only moves the key, it doesn't increase loot drops.