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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Raids are on a timer - it is called enrage.
    If bosses didn't have enrage people would just stack tanks and healers and call it a day.
    Virtually all content in WoW has a timer: Raids = enrage and mythic+. Even BGs, arena has a built in time factor. And therefore those activities have a built in pressure/dynamic and therefore make it challenging.

    Let me add that even LFR has built in enrage, so even LFR which is made for... not the most skilled people to put in mildly... is on a timer - enrage.
    That's not the same mechanic that's being discussed in this thread, though, and it would easily be solved by giving dungeon bosses enrages in M+. The issue with the timer in M+ is that it doesn't allow for downtime in between pulls.

  2. #262
    Easier? Sure. Less stressful? Okay. More enjoyable? Probably not.

    You'd probably need to bump up the requirement for KSM too. Without a timer or any impetus for expedience or efficiency, instead of +10 and +15 being the reward tresholds, itd probably have to be closer to +15 and +20.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I do think I'd enjoy it more without the fucking gogogogo attitude that has plagued this game since Wrath.

    Timers are nice for comparing yourself to others, but it would also be nice to be able to finish a dungeon if the pug healer fucks off, or somebody disconnects, or you want to talent change to beat a boss. Invalidate the timer, definitely, but leave them with the same level key at the end as long as the dungeon got completed.

    I think the only things that should downgrade a key are not finishing at all, and being able to manually downgrade when you put it in the key thing at the start.
    I do think not timing the key should not degrade the keystone, giving you the chance to try again instead of dumping you back one level which is demoralizing, and add an option to intentionally degrade the key to whatever level you wish directly from the inventory.

    The timer makes M+ an activity of high highs and low lows. Correctly executing an entire dungeon and timing a difficult key is immensely satisfying. Failing to time, even because of a small error sometimes, feels really bad. Widening the margin of error but punishing repeated mistakes even harder is the way to go if you ask me.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  4. #264
    I know several people who regularly complained about how they disliked the whole M+ experience because of the timer. I see their point but also see the use of the timer to keep things moving. Perhaps have a middle ground. Offer an option when inserting the key to either have the timer or no. That way if someone wants to take their time, allow for things like RL to happen, or if they want the go-go-go rampage they can. If no timer then definitely use a shared death pool to at least have a metric where the key goes poof. It allows player agency and serves both parties. People listing the groups would have a check box that says timer or no and is editable if after the group is forming they change their mind.
    Sure there'll be some that moan about how if it isn't timed there shouldn't be the same level of rewards. A +10 is a +10 whether you romped through it or didn't. The affixes are the same, the mechanics are the same. The only difference is the time spent. Beating a timer only moves the key, it doesn't increase loot drops.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The timer is fine but I'd like to relax the enemy forces BS. I get why it's there - it works against just doing skips and ignoring trash entirely - but to me you should not have to kill more trash than you'd do in a normal/heroic/M0 run and it feels like you have to.

    Another approach would be to adjust the timer a bit for lower keys since things below 10 don't really upgrade you much over covenant or honor gear.

    Yet another approach would be to relax the timer even more but to introduce death count. Instead of, say, a 30 minute timer, you get 50... but only X deaths where X isn't too low but also low enough that you can't just ignore deaths.
    It's a lot less of a problem in Shadowlands M+ because most dungeons are quite linear. The enemy forces are only something to look out for in Plaguefall, Halls of Atonement and to a lesser extent Spires/Necrotic Wake. Knowing what to kill to trigger Prideful properly before every boss is more important than just filling the bar.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  6. #266
    Then you'd just bring 5 CC classes and kill 1 mob at a time. This also leans into these single-target specs being ideal for killing bosses. It would be incredibly boring and shitty.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    That's not the same mechanic that's being discussed in this thread, though, and it would easily be solved by giving dungeon bosses enrages in M+. The issue with the timer in M+ is that it doesn't allow for downtime in between pulls.
    So you want Blizzard to change dungeons in to 5-man raids? Then you might as well remove most of the trash between the bosses.
    This thread is made by and supported by people who either don't find a particular activity fun or are unable to do that activity and instead of just doing what they lilke/find fun they want to deny other people their fun/challenging activity.

    I don't like pvp, but I don't go around demanding that I have the right to win in the arena or a bg just because I feel "it is toxic that I can't win".

    There is no issue with the timer in M+, there is an issue with people that can't accept that a particular activity is not for them.

  8. #268
    challenging content without the timer would be fun but i would think dungeons or the content would need to be adapted for that. i don't think dungeons in their current iteration really warrant rewards for doing it timerless.

    i would like to see challenge modes return. i think these can exist along side m+ as a for fun mode/different iteration of challenge and rewards similar to how torghast has its own wings and then twitsting corridors.

  9. #269
    Bloodsail Admiral Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I wish if there were 2 counters: 1 for deaths and another for time spent and the final reward would be based on this one which turned out better.

  10. #270
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    So you want Blizzard to change dungeons in to 5-man raids? Then you might as well remove most of the trash between the bosses.
    This thread is made by and supported by people who either don't find a particular activity fun or are unable to do that activity and instead of just doing what they lilke/find fun they want to deny other people their fun/challenging activity.

    I don't like pvp, but I don't go around demanding that I have the right to win in the arena or a bg just because I feel "it is toxic that I can't win".

    There is no issue with the timer in M+, there is an issue with people that can't accept that a particular activity is not for them.
    Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene. Sure, you could run a group that doesn't bother with the timer, but it isn't really a sustainable method of playing the game, particularly if you want to try more difficult dungeons (Because you'll have to time a key eventually, which sort of defeats the purpose of imposing a slower run).

  11. #271
    Honestly no... it would just slow down the dungeon and create more drama as people get annoyed by people dying constantly. The timer acts as an effective filter to clean up pugs higher up.

  12. #272
    Bad idea for the same reason that "hardcore" modes are terrible in arpgs, they just lead to overly defensive and uninspired gameplay. Possibly the only interesting thing about M+ is all the innovation that goes on and how routes and pulls get more extravagant as ilevels go up. This would all be gone without a timer, you would have a "safe" route through the dungeon and no one would ever deviate from it. It rewards cowardly and low-skillcap gameplay.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene.
    The "problem" with heroics that are harder than "normal, is that they become yolo AOE-fests the moment people outgear the content = those "hard" heroics have a very limited lifespan, whereas the lifespan for a M+ dungeon is the whole expansion as they scale into infinity.

    If we accept that reward should follow difficulty then those "hard" heroics would give nice gear at the beginning of each expansion, but very quickly become obsolete both difficulty-wise and reward-wise.

    Any content that isn't on a timer can be brute-forced with the right defensive setup and wating for CD's between each pull.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene. Sure, you could run a group that doesn't bother with the timer, but it isn't really a sustainable method of playing the game, particularly if you want to try more difficult dungeons (Because you'll have to time a key eventually, which sort of defeats the purpose of imposing a slower run).
    Considering “hard” heroics have only existed for the beginning part of 2 expansions there is probably an argument that could be made that they aren’t very popular.

    Only existed twice out of 8 expansions, and both times were nerfed shortly after.

  15. #275
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    The "problem" with heroics that are harder than "normal, is that they become yolo AOE-fests the moment people outgear the content = those "hard" heroics have a very limited lifespan, whereas the lifespan for a M+ dungeon is the whole expansion as they scale into infinity.

    If we accept that reward should follow difficulty then those "hard" heroics would give nice gear at the beginning of each expansion, but very quickly become obsolete both difficulty-wise and reward-wise.

    Any content that isn't on a timer can be brute-forced with the right defensive setup and wating for CD's between each pull.
    Well sure they can, but I don't think that matters to them. It's clear that they like difficult dungeons, but dislike being basically compelled to move as quickly as possible. Not because it's explicitly required by the content itself, but by the community of people that do Mythic+ often. I get it. For example, I like raids, but I dislike the community that does them because they're often anal, anti-social narcissists. I think what they're asking for isn't really possible, but I understand where they're coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Considering “hard” heroics have only existed for the beginning part of 2 expansions there is probably an argument that could be made that they aren’t very popular.

    Only existed twice out of 8 expansions, and both times were nerfed shortly after.
    I'm not exactly advocating for their inclusion, just trying to get people on the same page because there seems to be a lot of strawman arguments being thrown around, alongside quite a few misunderstandings.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Well sure they can, but I don't think that matters to them. It's clear that they like difficult dungeons, but dislike being basically compelled to move as quickly as possible. Not because it's explicitly required by the content itself, but by the community of people that do Mythic+ often.
    The problem is that those people that can't handle the pressure want the same rewards for doing easier stuff. Brute-forcing stuff is easier. If those people would have gone out honestly and said that they wanted easier content - as in non-timed - and that they would accept lesser rewards for the lesser effort/skill required then I would support them 100%.

    And your "community"-argument is old as WoW it self. And it can be solved with the same solution that is as old as WoW itself: Find like-minded people to play with.

  17. #277
    Personally, I think so. Removing the timer would do a lot of things. It would turn M+ into an actual ladder system instead of a race of "Who has the best meta". Even D3's rift system that has a timer is superior to Mythic +. Not only would it slow things down and turn it into more strategy then an aoe race fest, but it would also open the doors to more classes. Right now the meta is always who has the best utility and mobility. Warlock has amazing dmg especially at higher keys where the dots can tick, but garbage in M+ cause they don't bring enough to benefit the timer for example.

    Without the timer Blizzard would be able to hard tune the dngs that makes it easier to bring all specs/classes. Think of Torghast, no timer. You take your time, plan a strategy and go for it. You can bring any spec and class. M+ should be what Torghast is, it's supposed to be fun. if you really think about removing the timer could actually make it harder, right now they have to tune the dngs so people can clear them within time. Remove the timer and they could make harder pulls that prevent mass aoe and slows things down. Which opens up the dng to more specs/classes. It also brings more challenge so the "try hards" get what they want, and the those who don't play a desired class get what they want.
    Last edited by OokOok; 2021-03-07 at 07:52 AM.

  18. #278
    The Patient Lazerbrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    i would like if the key didnt go down a level if you complete it when time is up. it should only go down if you give up. and 1 up when in time ofc.
    i agree with this, + add some minutes to the timer on lower keys.

  19. #279
    Sad thing about M+ is that it discourages communication. Yes dungeons should be a puzzle that one collaborately needs to unravel. It's quite crazy how I can do an 18 key in a pug and say damn near nothing. You don't have time to stop and tell your team what to do or what you plan to do, people are just kind of expected to know and/or improvise on the fly.

    It ruins the emersion when your just trying to power through everything. With said great thing about the timer is people respect your time. No random afks or bio breaks. That timer starts its all business. Once again though those afk breaks people take do give you time to kind of take in the sights and ambience of the place. That's why I can't wait for the next mega dungeon.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Sad thing about M+ is that it discourages communication. Yes dungeons should be a puzzle that one collaborately needs to unravel. It's quite crazy how I can do an 18 key in a pug and say damn near nothing. You don't have time to stop and tell your team what to do or what you plan to do, people are just kind of expected to know and/or improvise on the fly.

    It ruins the emersion when your just trying to power through everything. With said great thing about the timer is people respect your time. No random afks or bio breaks. That timer starts its all business. Once again though those afk breaks people take do give you time to kind of take in the sights and ambience of the place. That's why I can't wait for the next mega dungeon.
    Nothing stops you from using voice chat during a M+ run.
    M+ is competitive content and "immersion" and "taking your time" is the 100% opposite of competitive.

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