WoW Bard Class Concept

[Triceron]

So the basis for a WoW expansion is the heroes exploring an amusement park for….. what exactly? Solving a cheesy mystery ala Scooby Doo? Would one of the dungeons/raids be a rollercoaster or a fun house?

I mean, if that's what you want, sure. I won't judge your tastes.

I imagined more to deal with the fact we have no idea where Darkmoon Island actually is, and is only accessible through portals. It could be in another cosmic realm for all we know, which could be an interesting staging point for what mysteries lie beyond.

[username993720]

I could see this argument working if not for their existence in-game already.

You mean slut mogs?
I mean part of the lore and cinematics of the game.

They don't need to do a full 'Rock N Roll' Bard.

You're just strawmanning the conversation at this point.

As I said, you said it was absolutely okay with a Bard that uses an Electric Guitar that changes the music they play in combat. That would literally be a depiction of a 'Rock and Roll' Bard that you are completely okay with.

So you aren't actually bothered by this concept at all, you're only fixated on a Bard that has to have all of its core mechanics based on Rock and Roll, which frankly no one is talking about having as a class.

We are simply debunking your ultimatum that it can't be part of any of the Bard's core mechanics at all. Yes, it could absolutely be added as a core, if it is subtle enough to be considered optional rather than mandatory. That is exactly how Brewmaster is handled in Monk Class; if you don't want to play as the Drunken Tank then you don't have to, there are two specs that are completely absent of anything related to Alcohol. The Brews in Mistweaver and Windwalker are broad enough to be regarded as Teas. And that's the level of ambiguity I'd expect any Heavy Metal or Rock influences to permeate the full class. Enough to support Heavy Metal or Rock influences in a spec or in some talents, but otherwise broad enough to support a traditional Bard as well. An ability like 'Encore' could apply to either a traditional Minstrel or a heavy metal Rockstar.

What the hell do you have against alcohol in the Monk? it's perfectly fine and feasible.

Yes, and I think that's acceptable if Blizzard allows the options, while having players define how they want to present themselves in the game.

At no point am I saying Bards *need* to all look like ETC in WoW. I pointed to those as examples of Rockstars *existing* in Warcraft, and debunking your claims that it doesn't fit WoW's aesthetics. Which let's be clear - you DID make this claim even though you are now elaborating that you're okay with it as an aesthetic.

Electrical items exist in WoW's lore. Rock music doesn't.

No, it was an earlier draft. Dude, I followed WC3 like a hawk and was in the forums when that shit was all being developed.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/His...en_in_Warcraft

"In the beta, pandaren wore samurai armor but as the panda as an animal is linked to China rather than Japan, some Chinese players complained and this was soon fixed."

So, it wasn't even fully developed. They have been known to make mistakes before, like thinking Pandas hibernate like other bears.

No, I won't. Because I don't think a Bard would be designed *around* Heavy Metal or Rock and Roll.

I've always made the argument that the Heavy Metal aesthetic fits in WoW, and that the Bard class can *pay homage* to Heavy Metal with some influences to its design.

Yet, you disregard all other music genres.

Yep, can't be helped if I have to be *extra clear* on my communication with you, since you can take a simple statement like 'Heavy Metal aesthetic fits WoW' and run with it thinking that it means I'm talking about a Bard that *has to have all its mechanics* designed around Heavy Metal. No, it just means I'd be fine If Blizzard added a Bard Class and allowed players to obtain an Electric Guitar Instrument/Weapon that plays Heavy Metal music, and I don't think that would *break* WoW's aesthetic considering we already had this kind of stuff as far back as TBC. I would be completely okay if they threw in a couple talents or mechanics that homaged Heavy Metal or Rock in the class mechanics, similar to how Alcohol was homaged in the Brewmaster spec. I don't think that breaks WoW, and frankly, neither do you.

A cosmetic item? sure.

Why are you still choosing to argue against a fully-blown Heavy Metal Bard class when I never proposed that idea? You can go back however many pages, and you won't ever see me mentioning a Bard that is designed solely around Rock n Roll or Heavy Metal. I've always said that there's nothing wrong with simply being a part of the class. Like a traditional RPG Bard class that has 5% Heavy Metal influence is what I consider completely acceptable, especially considering how much Heavy Metal and Rock already influences WoW.

I'll even repost someone else's response to you with the context of literally just saying Heavy Metal fits WoW's aesthetics, and NOT talking about about making a Bard that is completely built around Heavy Metal


You: No. Heavy metal does not fit the aesthetic of WoW (outside of jokes)

AKCephalpod: Warcraft has involved rock and roll as an aesthetic for a long time. Remember when you beat the Warcraft 3 campaign and were rewarded with a rock concert staring Arthas as the lead guitarist or ETC? What about the quest at the Darkmoon Faire with the band Blightboar? Or how so much of the early aesthetic of Warcraft was based on heavy metal album covers?

If you're looking for lore or aesthetics for the bard to be based around, the Darkmoon Faire is chocked full of it, not to mention how much the setting itself owes to the aesthetics of heavy metal.

Just because the developers were fans of the genres and put in some references does not make it fit the aesthetics of the game. Neither would it be if it was added to Diablo or Starcraft.
The underlying problem is that you can't distinguish between jokes put into the game and real substantive content. To you, it's all the same. Meaning, you probably take characters like Haris Pilton as true to the game lore, rather than just a fun tribute.

You can see that he isn't talking about making Bards completely based on Heavy Metal. He's just addressing your own statement that it doesn't fit the aesthetic of WoW. And that's pretty much the same statement I've been making; that Rock and Heavy Metal do fit WoW because we literally already have that in the game. That you consider it a 'joke' is really your personal interpretation, because you also choose not to view Drunk Pandas as a joke even though it directly references April Fools Joke and to Samwise's own funny stories, and not as a reference to realistic depiction of Martial Artists and Monks. Drunken Fist was brought in as a bridge to make sense of how Drunk Panda Tanking would fit as a class mechanic for Monks. Your choice to ignore the former and fixate on the latter is literally how you choose to interpret the Monk class's references to Alcohol. That you don't consider it a joke is likely because you were unaware of the origins of the tie-ins between Pandas and Alcohol in the first place. It was literally as I linked to you - meant to be a one-off character who did not represent all of Pandaren Culture, yet became so popular that it ended up *defining* an entire branch of Martial Arts within the Monk class.

Did Monks never use Alcohol? did the chinese never drink it?
Pretty sure these are chinese wine bottles:

[Triceron]

What the hell do you have against alcohol in the Monk? it's perfectly fine and feasible.

Alcohol in the Monk class is a direct reference to a joke aspect of the Brewmaster. And let's be clear, I'm referring to aspects such as *throwing a keg at the enemies in order to drench them and allow them to be lit on fire*. That is a gag move carried over from Warcraft 3 Brewmasters, and not some Drunken Fist Martial Arts technique.

I'm making the point that you can take a joke and make it seriously integrated into a class, by means of building nuance and lore around it.

Heavy Metal in a Bard Class? Acceptable if you abstract it as Gnomes developing Electric Guitars and using them to play Rock music. It fits WoW's aesthetic, addresses your proclamation that Heavy Metal does not fit outside of being a Joke. It all depends on how it's approached and how it's integrated into the game, just as alcohol *was* a joke aspect of the Brewmaster, and has since been integrated completely as a part of the Monk class mechanics.

Electrical items exist in WoW's lore. Rock music doesn't.

ETC exists as a Rock Band in WoW.. Rock music like Power of the Horde and I am Murloc are in the game, including Blight Boar's music. You can't pretend this is non-canonical when it's front and center presented in WoW.

So, it wasn't even fully developed. They have been known to make mistakes before, like thinking Pandas hibernate like other bears.

Yes, and I'm clearly pointing out how this ties in directly to Drunken Fist not being an original part of the Brewmaster's design. Keg tossing was meant to be absurd. It is meant to be seen as a gag.

And I'm pointing at how Blizzard has since molded that into a serious aspect of the Brewmaster spec is an example of how Heavy Metal could be abstracted into Bards. It's a similar relationship, do you not understand the parallel I'm making here?

We can regard any Absurd theme and abstract it into a serious game mechanic.

Yet, you disregard all other music genres.

You stated that Heavy Metal does not fit the WoW aesthetic, therefore we are addressing your concerns about Heavy Metal. If you wish to proclaim other music genres do not fit WoW, then I'd just as easily argue in their defense, on a case-by-case scenario.

Again, I'm holding you accountable for your claims. I'm not sure why you are trying to tangent away to this being about other genres of music; you said the Heavy Metal aesthetic does not fit WoW, therefore we are specifically talking about Heavy Metal.

The game also has Polka music (Brewfest), Asian style Chinese music, African style Drum beats, etc. If anyone made a statement that 'Polka doesn't fit the Warcraft aesthetic' then I would disagree, and I would present examples to support my argument that it's a bogus statement, considering we HAVE Polka music and plenty of Polka references in WoW.

Just because the developers were fans of the genres and put in some references does not make it fit the aesthetics of the game

It sure it does.

It's the difference between the aesthetic of WoW compared to say the aesthetic of Skyrim, that doesn't have jokey easter egg references to other game genres. WoW is much more flexible and pop-culture driven, and that is all a part of the aesthetic.

Bronjahm in Wrath of the Lich King is literally a reference to James Brown, and has voicelines and grunts that homage him, while saxophone music plays in his fight. It's absurd, it's fun, and it's all a part of the WoW aesthetic.

You can't separate what you regard in lore as being an aesthetic while dismissing anything that's a gag as not being part of WoW's aesthetic. I mean do you even understand the argument you're making? Because I feel like you intend to say something specific, but instead you're making all these broad claims for how the game can't have references to Starcraft or Diablo when those already exist in the game like through the non-combat pets and other gimmicks. Those are all *part of the WoW aesthetic*.

The underlying problem is that you can't distinguish between jokes put into the game and real substantive content. To you, it's all the same. Meaning, you probably take characters like Haris Pilton as true to the game lore, rather than just a fun tribute.

Did you mean say it doesn't fit the high fantasy aesthetic you expect out of a class? Maybe if you said something more specific like this, I'd be inclined to agree. But no, you just said it doesn't fit the WoW aesthetic, and when Heavy Metal is ever brought up, you continually dismiss it for being a 'gag'. Well, gags are still part of the WoW aesthetic. You can be a Death Knight running around with bright green pants and a corgi pet, and that's all WoW aesthetic.

WoW isn't Skyrim where the world has a very defined Fantasy tone and strays little from it. WoW is absolutely filled with absurdism, and characters like Haris Pilton can't be ignored as 'not part of WoW aesthetic' just because you personally don't take them seriously.

[draugril]

I would even argue that, if Samwise's panda doodles were the germ of the Monk class, you could trace the germ of a potential rock-based Bard class back to the "disco" code in WarCraft II. It all depends on how much Blizzard wants to run with it. I mean, by the standards some people on these boards have, the existence of Trolls and Ogres and Elves and Dwarves would be impossible by their standards as they weren't in the originating game. God forbid a franchise expand and evolve over time...

[Zyrinx]

I would even argue that, if Samwise's panda doodles were the germ of the Monk class, you could trace the germ of a potential rock-based Bard class back to the "disco" code in WarCraft II. It all depends on how much Blizzard wants to run with it. I mean, by the standards some people on these boards have, the existence of Trolls and Ogres and Elves and Dwarves would be impossible by their standards as they weren't in the originating game. God forbid a franchise expand and evolve over time...

Especially a franchise that's really dry of actually fun new ideas. Heaven forbid, indeed.

[FossilFree]

Just make them based on the Warcraft 3 kodo riders. Drummers are musicians too!

[Teriz]

Just make them based on the Warcraft 3 kodo riders. Drummers are musicians too!

How would you have Kodoriders in the alliance?

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Well now that's a nice exercise.

Yeah, I'd see that being a melee mid-range class, mostly. Emphasis on crowd control. I never understood why Bard was so much associated to an archer.

What races ? Well all of them. Music is universal. And the Faire is multicultural.

The Faire is an accursed land that would be perfect as a start zone, where you could explore and unveil its mysterious and dark secrets. As for an expansion, if we go for a return to Azeroth and a focus on bringing peace, a class of astute storytellers and party bringers is a good thing to see roaming the world, singing the great achievements and stories of its inhabitants.

If we are to really tie the theme of this expansion to the Faire, then that theme would be dark secrets, lurking in the shadows. Mischievous creatures, old enemies attacking the weakened Horde and Alliance, cultists trying to bring back the old gods. Knaifu could very well be a villain and that expansion could lead to a Void incursion on Azeroth. Bards have quite the exploration theme associated to them, so they would be a good motor in the unveiling of dark mysteries.

I’ll grant you that such a concept would be interesting. However there’s no lore hero to attach the Darkmoon Faire to. ETC with its heavy metal aesthetic, really doesn’t match the thematic of the faire, and isn’t attached to it lore-wise in any capacity.

[FossilFree]

How would you have Kodoriders in the alliance?

One spec could be a wardrummer spec to fit the Horde theme, one a lute spec ala Russell Brower for the Alliance feels, and a neutral theme piccolo user like Hearthsinger Forresten. Wardrummers would be all about doing direct damage and DPS buffs, lute would be the healer, and piccolo for a mix of dots, debuffs, and CC (basically, the PVP spec).

[Teriz]

One spec could be a wardrummer spec to fit the Horde theme, one a lute spec ala Russell Brower for the Alliance feels, and a neutral theme piccolo user like Hearthsinger Forresten. Wardrummers would be all about doing direct damage and DPS buffs, lute would be the healer, and piccolo for a mix of dots, debuffs, and CC (basically, the PVP spec).

You’re still running into the problem of a Kodorider being in the alliance. Alliance doesn’t have Kodos, and they don’t beat war drums. Also like what is the purpose of the spec beyond riding on a Kodo (if that is even feasible)?

Additionally those three NPCs don’t really gel into a cohesive class. Keep in mind that every class has shared base abilities that relates to every spec within said class.

[username993720]

Alcohol in the Monk class is a direct reference to a joke aspect of the Brewmaster. And let's be clear, I'm referring to aspects such as *throwing a keg at the enemies in order to drench them and allow them to be lit on fire*. That is a gag move carried over from Warcraft 3 Brewmasters, and not some Drunken Fist Martial Arts technique.

I'm making the point that you can take a joke and make it seriously integrated into a class, by means of building nuance and lore around it.

Heavy Metal in a Bard Class? Acceptable if you abstract it as Gnomes developing Electric Guitars and using them to play Rock music. It fits WoW's aesthetic, addresses your proclamation that Heavy Metal does not fit outside of being a Joke. It all depends on how it's approached and how it's integrated into the game, just as alcohol *was* a joke aspect of the Brewmaster, and has since been integrated completely as a part of the Monk class mechanics.

"A brewmaster (also known as brewmeister or brewmaiden) is known for making drinks and concoctions which give the brewmaster and others special abilities.

Hailing from the secretive Pandaren Empire, the mighty brewmasters travel the world in search of exotic ales and the finest brewed spirits. These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages for any brave enough to imbibe them. However, if attacked, the laughing brewmasters bring all of their pandaren agility and ferocity to bear! They even bring their beer to war! They are peerless warriors and world class drinkers all in one!

A rare few pandaren walk outside of their culture's normal ways. Brewmasters are those pandaren given to a fondness for drink. Rather than them being relegated to some outcast place in society, however, pandaren highly regard those who show such a propensity. These pandaren, like all their kind, master a craft: theirs is the creation of ales, wines and other spirits.

Yet the term "spirits" is not used facetiously among these folk, for those who would become brewmasters learn which plants, berries, and fungi harbor the most powerful spirits. They harvest these spirits and awaken them, allowing the one fortunate enough to drink one of these Master Brews to actually see and commune with the spirit.

A warrior Hero, the brewmasters of Pandaria have emerged from the bamboo forests of their ancestors to bring their unique fighting style (and robust ales) to the highest bidder."

It's, literally, in their name. What did you think a Brewmaster specialization would be about?

ETC exists as a Rock Band in WoW.. Rock music like Power of the Horde and I am Murloc are in the game, including Blight Boar's music. You can't pretend this is non-canonical when it's front and center presented in WoW.

Exists in game and exists in lore are two different things. They can put as many references, tributes and jokes as they like in-game, but they rarely do it in their books.

Yes, and I'm clearly pointing out how this ties in directly to Drunken Fist not being an original part of the Brewmaster's design. Keg tossing was meant to be absurd. It is meant to be seen as a gag.

And I'm pointing at how Blizzard has since molded that into a serious aspect of the Brewmaster spec is an example of how Heavy Metal could be abstracted into Bards. It's a similar relationship, do you not understand the parallel I'm making here?

We can regard any Absurd theme and abstract it into a serious game mechanic.

What do you get when you combine a brew maker with martial arts? a Pandaren Brewmaster. They can't get rid of neither of these aspects.

You stated that Heavy Metal does not fit the WoW aesthetic, therefore we are addressing your concerns about Heavy Metal. If you wish to proclaim other music genres do not fit WoW, then I'd just as easily argue in their defense, on a case-by-case scenario.

Again, I'm holding you accountable for your claims. I'm not sure why you are trying to tangent away to this being about other genres of music; you said the Heavy Metal aesthetic does not fit WoW, therefore we are specifically talking about Heavy Metal.

The game also has Polka music (Brewfest), Asian style Chinese music, African style Drum beats, etc. If anyone made a statement that 'Polka doesn't fit the Warcraft aesthetic' then I would disagree, and I would present examples to support my argument that it's a bogus statement, considering we HAVE Polka music and plenty of Polka references in WoW.

Yet, you guys are only pushing for the Rock and Metal aspects. Don't you find it a bit biased?

It sure it does.

It's the difference between the aesthetic of WoW compared to say the aesthetic of Skyrim, that doesn't have jokey easter egg references to other game genres. WoW is much more flexible and pop-culture driven, and that is all a part of the aesthetic.

Bronjahm in Wrath of the Lich King is literally a reference to James Brown, and has voicelines and grunts that homage him, while saxophone music plays in his fight. It's absurd, it's fun, and it's all a part of the WoW aesthetic.

You can't separate what you regard in lore as being an aesthetic while dismissing anything that's a gag as not being part of WoW's aesthetic. I mean do you even understand the argument you're making? Because I feel like you intend to say something specific, but instead you're making all these broad claims for how the game can't have references to Starcraft or Diablo when those already exist in the game like through the non-combat pets and other gimmicks. Those are all *part of the WoW aesthetic*.

Okay. Let me make myself clear.
Since you acknowledge these things as jokey easter eggs, i will admit that this is what i meant. Jokey easter eggs. Nothing more, nothing less. When i say "don't fit the aesthetic" i mean it cannot be taken seriously into the lore, story, cinematic, RP and immersion of the game. These are just fun gimmicks.

Did you mean say it doesn't fit the high fantasy aesthetic you expect out of a class? Maybe if you said something more specific like this, I'd be inclined to agree. But no, you just said it doesn't fit the WoW aesthetic, and when Heavy Metal is ever brought up, you continually dismiss it for being a 'gag'. Well, gags are still part of the WoW aesthetic. You can be a Death Knight running around with bright green pants and a corgi pet, and that's all WoW aesthetic.

WoW isn't Skyrim where the world has a very defined Fantasy tone and strays little from it. WoW is absolutely filled with absurdism, and characters like Haris Pilton can't be ignored as 'not part of WoW aesthetic' just because you personally don't take them seriously.

Yes. That's what i meant.
Differentiate between jokes and seriousness.
They can both feature in game, but they are not on equal terms.

I would even argue that, if Samwise's panda doodles were the germ of the Monk class, you could trace the germ of a potential rock-based Bard class back to the "disco" code in WarCraft II. It all depends on how much Blizzard wants to run with it. I mean, by the standards some people on these boards have, the existence of Trolls and Ogres and Elves and Dwarves would be impossible by their standards as they weren't in the originating game. God forbid a franchise expand and evolve over time...

Ogres were. Troll, Elves and Dwarves were added later on.
Thing is, none of them were jokes.

[DatToffer]

How would you have Kodoriders in the alliance?

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I’ll grant you that such a concept would be interesting. However there’s no lore hero to attach the Darkmoon Faire to. ETC with its heavy metal aesthetic, really doesn’t match the thematic of the faire, and isn’t attached to it lore-wise in any capacity.

Ultimately, it is an over the top silly concept. And what it would take to make them so-called "lore-wise" is some balls.

I bet my ass that if a Bard class showed up, it would be the classical kinda boring archetype you'd expect and that the L70ETC concert would be relegated to a summoning Spell, like the Hunter's Stampede.

[draugril]

Ogres were. Troll, Elves and Dwarves were added later on.
Thing is, none of them were jokes.

Pandaren were.

Yet here we are.

[Teriz]

Pandaren were.

Yet here we are.

Pandaren and Chen Stormstout were integrated rather quickly into Warcraft lore, with Chen participating in the founding of Ogrimmar alongside Rexxar.

The ETC has not.

[draugril]

Pandaren and Chen Stormstout were integrated rather quickly into Warcraft lore, with Chen participating in the founding of Ogrimmar alongside Rexxar.

The ETC has not.

Arguable.

Regardless, the germ of both were "jokes," although I would argue that Pandaren were on much shakier ground to begin with.

[username993720]

Pandaren were.

Yet here we are.

So are Tinkers. But unlike the Guitar Hero Bard, they actually fit into the game's atmosphere.

[draugril]

So are Tinkers. But unlike the Guitar Hero Bard, they actually fit into the game's atmosphere.

Subjective.

[username993720]

Subjective.

Nah... not really.

[draugril]

Nah... not really.

Entirely.

[username993720]

Entirely.

You'd need to do better than that to convince me.

[draugril]

You'd need to do better than that to convince me.

No need as this isn't a debate, at all. This is entirely subjective. From my perspective, rock music and aesthetics are infinitely more integral to the fabric of the franchise than Tinkers ever were. You do not see it this way. Tinkers resonated with you in a way they did not with me. That is the core of what subjectivity is. I have no desire to tell someone that their subjective opinion is false. But I will definitely tell them that it is subjective. Because it is, entirely, when discussing something this philosophical.