"1.12.1 made everything easy"

[Daronokk]

Classic is ridiculously easy. Naxxramas definitely proved that, delusional people could no longer blame the patch version.

Riiight, that's why people have to abuse systems like permanent world buffs to beat content?

That and up until Naxx people were playing pre-Naxx content with post-Naxx talent and class updates/buffs due to the 1.12 client. It's not the same as vanilla, where for example some specs and talents were horrible early on.

And let's not forget to factor in horrible latency back in the days. For a big part of the game even managing 40 people and having good internet speed was about as difficult as playing the actual game and defeating a boss.

[Yamuri]

He's still right. You still haven't provided a coherent argument.

It's an opinion, I don't have to argue with anyone. What kind of spoiled nonsense is this where everyone's opinions have to be the same and if they aren't they have to have a debate or someone is just wrong? I still don't think it's harder because you drag out leveling, it doesn't make sense. I don't care if someone disagrees, they can have their own opinion because they are human.

[NineSpine]

It's an opinion, I don't have to argue with anyone. What kind of spoiled nonsense is this where everyone's opinions have to be the same and if they aren't they have to have a debate or someone is just wrong? I still don't think it's harder because you drag out leveling, it doesn't make sense. I don't care if someone disagrees, they can have their own opinion because they are human.

It's not an opinion. It's a cold, hard fact. You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

Leveling in classic does not just take longer. Your character is less powerful relative to the mobs, has a smaller toolkit for dealing with them, and the zone layouts make it much easier to stumble upon higher level enemies. Those are objective truths that make it harder. It's not opinion. It's fact.

But even if we ignore that, if all of those things were equal, the one that takes longer would then be the harder one because time investment is a factor in difficulty to accomplish something. Otherwise, you'd have to say that walking to the bathroom and walking across the country are equally difficult.

[Sughs]

For those talking about 1.0.1, It wouldn't make a difference, the game would be exactly at the same place it is now. It would have had a few more minor inconveniences and that's it.

[Yamuri]

It's not an opinion. It's a cold, hard fact. You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

Leveling in classic does not just take longer. Your character is less powerful relative to the mobs, has a smaller toolkit for dealing with them, and the zone layouts make it much easier to stumble upon higher level enemies. Those are objective truths that make it harder. It's not opinion. It's fact.

But even if we ignore that, if all of those things were equal, the one that takes longer would then be the harder one because time investment is a factor in difficulty to accomplish something. Otherwise, you'd have to say that walking to the bathroom and walking across the country are equally difficult.

difficulty is fundamentally opinion based. if you say time investment is a factor in difficulty, you can compare walking to the bathroom a further distance but how about a train vs a bus. If the train gets to the destination first from the same city then is it really easier? Talk about metaphors all day, it doesn't matter. Difficulty no matter how you look at it, is fundamentally different for each person.

[NineSpine]

difficulty is fundamentally opinion based. if you say time investment is a factor in difficulty, you can compare walking to the bathroom a further distance but how about a train vs a bus. If the train gets to the destination first from the same city then is it really easier? Talk about metaphors all day, it doesn't matter. Difficulty no matter how you look at it, is fundamentally different for each person.

Leveling in classic and leveling in retail are fundamentally similar things so they are very easy to compare. This isn't like comparing two wildly different activites.

Being squishier makes it harder.
Having less tools makes it harder.
Being more likely to encounter higher level enemies makes it harder.
Lack of scaling makes it harder.

None of these are opinion. You can't be of the "opinion" that being more prone to dying somehow makes the content easier. That's irrational. You just have some chip on your shoulder about the difficulty comparison so you are resorting to absolutely irrational lunacy to avoid admitting the obvious.

Just say "It's harder but I don't think that that type of difficulty is rewarding or fun. It is tedious difficulty." THAT is an opinion.

[munkeyinorbit]

They would fail on Onyxia and MC even due to you can ignore the mechanics and expect to survive it.

The LFR crowd was able to call nzoth which is harder than everything in classic. Naxx is on LFR level with end bosses in LFR being more difficult.

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He responded to a post he already responded to. lol what a joke this is.

A valid point is a valid point. Your response was just to rant with nonsense.

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Riiight, that's why people have to abuse systems like permanent world buffs to beat content?

That and up until Naxx people were playing pre-Naxx content with post-Naxx talent and class updates/buffs due to the 1.12 client. It's not the same as vanilla, where for example some specs and talents were horrible early on.

And let's not forget to factor in horrible latency back in the days. For a big part of the game even managing 40 people and having good internet speed was about as difficult as playing the actual game and defeating a boss.

Your argument, after taking time to read slowly because of being so incoherent, actually backs up the notion that Vanilla was the easiest raid content going around. Did you mean to do that?

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It's an opinion, I don't have to argue with anyone. What kind of spoiled nonsense is this where everyone's opinions have to be the same and if they aren't they have to have a debate or someone is just wrong? I still don't think it's harder because you drag out leveling, it doesn't make sense. I don't care if someone disagrees, they can have their own opinion because they are human.

Normally people that have a valid argument would have points that make sense. They don't put up an incoherent defense and expect to be taken seriously. Since being proven wrong you have done nothing but provide us with word salad after word salad. It's not about having an opinion. It's about being wrong, being proven to be wrong by your own standards and then refusing to acknowledge this with rambling nonsens like 'but we are all human' as if that was any reason to back up your argument.

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difficulty is fundamentally opinion based. if you say time investment is a factor in difficulty, you can compare walking to the bathroom a further distance but how about a train vs a bus. If the train gets to the destination first from the same city then is it really easier? Talk about metaphors all day, it doesn't matter. Difficulty no matter how you look at it, is fundamentally different for each person.

Yes it is. A train is easier because it doesn't have to deal with traffic. Let's move those goalposts back shall we? In Classic it takes longer to kill one mob. In Classic you can handle less mobs before they kill you. It's more difficult to kill mobs by any measure.

[voidillusion]

Naxx in 2020/2021 is easy yes, still is hard enough for your average guild to have to do multiple WB runs in the same raid to be able to kill last bosses.

The WB meta obviously conditioned everything and everyone who aspired to raid.

[Yamuri]

Leveling in classic and leveling in retail are fundamentally similar things so they are very easy to compare. This isn't like comparing two wildly different activites.

Being squishier makes it harder.
Having less tools makes it harder.
Being more likely to encounter higher level enemies makes it harder.
Lack of scaling makes it harder.

None of these are opinion. You can't be of the "opinion" that being more prone to dying somehow makes the content easier. That's irrational. You just have some chip on your shoulder about the difficulty comparison so you are resorting to absolutely irrational lunacy to avoid admitting the obvious.

Just say "It's harder but I don't think that that type of difficulty is rewarding or fun. It is tedious difficulty." THAT is an opinion.

You aren't squishier though. You just don't have the self healing skills you have in retail to heal yourself after a fight on some classes. So yeah less tools but can be replaced with buying food. If you argue that gold is hard to get, it really shouldn't factor in. I'll say elites are harder like I already said earlier, though if you are going to areas where it's that hard it's the wrong area already. Lack of scaling also makes it easier when you hit the end of a zone when they start to turn green.

I don't see how any of it is fact. If I have 3 or 4 button rotation, what makes that harder than a 5-6 button rotation? Maybe someone thinks that's harder. At the end of the day, assuming everyone views difficulty the same way is irrational. This is my last post on the matter because you are stating opinions as facts and you obviously don't know the difference in perception.

[msdos]

Yeah it's easy if you stack all the world buffs and consumes.

News flash, back in 2004 no one did that. We wanted to play the game back then believe it or not and there was about 10x the amount of open world PVP guilds there are now. Hell, my first ever legit guilds were world pvp guilds and all we did was run around ganking, then BGs when they released. The top PVPers all migrated on to the best PVE guilds.

Elitist Jerks wasn't even buffed when they killed C'thun. No one gave a crap back then, the community is completely 180'd in it's behavior from vanilla.
Also, my first MC runs, all I did was out of combat rez. That means I didn't even start knowing or caring about the raid mechanics until they patched out being able to drop combat, which is like a fundamental, CORE game mechanic, before BWL was even out and I'm pretty sure it was before they did the raid loot tuning, back when like zero loot used to drop.

[NineSpine]

You aren't squishier though. You just don't have the self healing skills you have in retail to heal yourself after a fight on some classes. So yeah less tools but can be replaced with buying food. If you argue that gold is hard to get, it really shouldn't factor in. I'll say elites are harder like I already said earlier, though if you are going to areas where it's that hard it's the wrong area already. Lack of scaling also makes it easier when you hit the end of a zone when they start to turn green.

I don't see how any of it is fact. If I have 3 or 4 button rotation, what makes that harder than a 5-6 button rotation? Maybe someone thinks that's harder. At the end of the day, assuming everyone views difficulty the same way is irrational. This is my last post on the matter because you are stating opinions as facts and you obviously don't know the difference in perception.

Self heals don't only function between fights. They allow you to survive fights. I never said anything about elites. I said stumbling upon higher level enemies while questing in a specific zone, which literally don't even exist in retail with level scaling.

Do you actually believe that a classic character has the same power level relative to a mob of the same level as in retail? It's factually untrue.

[TheWorkingTitle]

You know this is a lie.
You know damn well those bosses would have been tanked and spanked into oblivion within hours of being released by the more devoted groups/guilds.
You know damn well the saying "it was hard because we didn't know what we were doing" is at least partially true.

Not sure why so many toxic, elitist myths persisted within the Classic community.

It was actually 1.11. Classes became so much stronger, cohesive, and modernized. Items were buffed, modernized, and player health pools increased. Bosses were nerfed. And the list goes on. This is even more glaring when comparing 1.11 to how the game originally shipped.


Classic should have launched with the original patch same as Vanilla, but instead we got mid 2006 tools for a late 2004 game. It was objectively easier in every regard compared to how Vanilla actually was (re: much more difficult than Classic)

[anon5123]

the community is completely 180'd in it's behavior from vanilla.

it's almost like people don't enjoy flailing around like clueless idiots and spending hours wiping because of it

[Echocho]

It was actually 1.11. Classes became so much stronger, cohesive, and modernized. Items were buffed, modernized, and player health pools increased. Bosses were nerfed. And the list goes on. This is even more glaring when comparing 1.11 to how the game originally shipped.


Classic should have launched with the original patch same as Vanilla, but instead we got mid 2006 tools for a late 2004 game. It was objectively easier in every regard compared to how Vanilla actually was (re: much more difficult than Classic)

Then why is naxxramas also easy? By that logic naxxramas should be hard since very little has changed since the patch it launched.

I don't understand why we're so insecure about classic being piss easy, it's one of its absolute greatest strengths, it's why classic is much more popular than retail where everything has to be so damn hard all the time.

[Heathy]

its been fun, naxx week 1 we made it to saphiron, did that for 3 or 4 weeks, killed everything upto saph, then finally did saph and kel in two raids, then it was pretty much taking us 3-4 hrs each week to clear the instance. and then this sunday we did it in 1hr48mins. with DMF. I'm happy with this, everyone who was there was happy with that, we beat the other horde guild on our server (that hasn't folded yet) by 10 minutes. the culmination of farming gear and peak preparation all bet on a single raid per month.

the difficulty has been irrelevant since various guilds came, raided and then folded, the enjoyment has been, sticking with it, till the end, and setting realm records for each phase. anyone can compete for clear times. but this has been the fun part, anyone can kill the bosses, but not many manage to do it in good time. or their guild folds and all the amassed gear is spread to the wind.

when you go for a speed run, you can't really just bleed players to stupid things, the speed runs success relies on everyone staying alive for as long as possible.

I think mistakes get made more often in speed runs but I do also like to see improvement, its one of those things, if you can do the instance, then you work at doing it better. so it takes less time. that is what being on farm is. but you only really get one shot at these buffed runs if you wipe then thats that.

how hard is naxx in a comparative sense to the rest of classic, well on my realm 34 alliance guilds have cleared naxx at this point, with 12 horde guilds.

as a comparison 65 alliance guilds cleared aq40 and 25 horde. basically half the amount of raids that managed to do aq40, also managed to clear naxx.

that is basically how 'hard' it is. here are the numbers from my server. technically if you can clear aq40 you shouldn't have much trouble with naxx, but, it looks like many ppl actually did. naxx basically killed 50% of the guilds that managed to clear aq40.

AQ40
Naxx

the hard part has just been, doing well, really, maintaining good logs and good clear times, if ppl aren't focused if everyone slacks and whines about stuff, then you probably aren't going to be getting any good logs, but you ARE competing with the other guilds on your server and this is what is difficult to beat, its difficult to beat your own best and its difficult to beat other guilds when they play their best. each raid everyone has a bit more gear and can push a little better. the bosses themselves, in any expansion are only challenging the first time when you have the least amount of gear. all subsequent kills are easier, ppl know what to expect and gear is generally better. no raid gets harder over time. so you find a new meta some other challenge.

classic should have launched in its least bugged, most balanced state, which it did. anything else would have meant simply waiting for the best patch to come along. having done naxx a bunch of times now its, hard enough to make it mostly unpuggable. some of it is likely pugged but its difficult enough to make it so that pulling 40 random ppl out the trade chat isn't going to work.

[kiramon]

Then why is naxxramas also easy? By that logic naxxramas should be hard since very little has changed since the patch it launched.

I don't understand why we're so insecure about classic being piss easy, it's one of its absolute greatest strengths, it's why classic is much more popular than retail where everything has to be so damn hard all the time.

If you can't tell the difference between THEN and NOW (my UI in BWL in vanilla vs a rando-classic streamer today) ...



To further help... here's my uber leet pc set up -- i was even on the wow forums!

[Echocho]

To further help... here's my uber leet pc set up -- i was even on the wow forums!

Yikes that's awful. You were still using CRT monitors in 2005?

[Kagthul]

Yikes that's awful. You were still using CRT monitors in 2005?

vast majority of the world was. Even a 17" flat panel was three times the price of a decent Sony Trinitron (which also looked better than those early flat panels).

[arkanon]

yeah it factually made it easier.

but the thing is, its like stepping on 1 ant vs stepping on 3 ants, you hardly notice the difference lol

This is just too perfect not to quote. So accurate.

I think many people confuse easy with easier - either intentionally or otherwise. Some like to claim it took it from a 10/10 difficulty down to a 1/10, when reality is closer to 2.5/10 down to a 2/10. Easier? Yes. Does that mean it was ever actually difficult? Nah, not at all.

Some kids colouring books are harder than others, but I wouldnt say any are HARD.

[kiramon]

Yikes that's awful. You were still using CRT monitors in 2005?

Yes, lol. I was indeed.