"Pay to win"

[Baroclinic]

Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

That is all.

Hell, that's like paying to play the content your already paying to play. Even a worse concept.

[csguba]

Your first comment I replied to presented it as a gift from the wow gods done in the spirit of allowing ppl to play the game - thats the only part I disagreed with. If this statement was true, they would be offering 1 FREE boost per account. Im not saying they should, im simply saying for your comment to be true, thats what would be required.

I would say you can do something in the spirit of something while also receiving a benefit yourself. Regardless that's not something I'm pushing, I'm sure you can understand the meaning behind what I was saying rather than focusing on the literal.

To follow on though, if it's not something that you have an issue with as you say, and that the company understandably exists to make money, is your only reason for being in this thread for 12 pages to argue semantics?

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Hell, that's like paying to play the content your already paying to play. Even a worse concept.

Then don't use the service and let people that do get benefit from it, regardless of if you understand the benefit, to themselves?

[Kyanion]

Hell no. It's an RPG, you don't just skip parts of it to get to the end. In TBC you didn't skip to level 58 because the developers wanted you to experience it above all else. They knew what an RPG was supposed to be like, and to give new players some help in TBC they didn't go for an incredibly lazy and excessively greedy money-grabbing option, they reduced the experience required and added additional content to make things better and more fun in the old world. It's an expansion, not a separate game.

K and what you are saying isn't taking into consideration a relaunched version of the game. Blizz want people to play TBC but they realize many people would not play it if they have to grind through 1-58. So they are putting in the option to ONE TIME skip to 58. You can argue if it is p2w or not until you are blue in the face but it is happening.

[arkanon]

I would say you can do something in the spirit of something while also receiving a benefit yourself. Regardless that's not something I'm pushing, I'm sure you can understand the meaning behind what I was saying rather than focusing on the literal.

To follow on though, if it's not something that you have an issue with as you say, and that the company understandably exists to make money, is your only reason for being in this thread for 12 pages to argue semantics?

I think my first post was on like....page 9? so no, i have not been in this thread for 12 pages. Secondly, i had no idea we were arguing - I thought we were just having a discussion, you know, like normal people do. I guess if you thought we were having an argument, you really need to ask yourself the same question.

[Shoxu]

Not trolling, but i will buy the skip for TBC Classic purely because i have less time to play WoW and rather get to the end game quicker. Levelling in Classic was the one thing that put me off so i never played as it took me 6 months to get to 60 in Vanilla lol, so from my perspective this 1 time introduction is great.

Looking forward to spamming chain heal...

[Kyanion]

It doesn't feel like a breathing, organic world when you know you can just swipe a card and instantly level to 58 instead of getting there yourself. An MMORPG is supposed be about building up your character from zero. I don't have a problem with people hypothetically using it, I have a problem with it existing in the first place.

Well it isn't a breathing, organic world. Even when the game was in Vanilla paid services came along such as server transfers. Sure was weird seeing someone that was a 'breathing organic' person just appear on the server at max level and all that. It ruined immersion. Oh wait, no it didn't.

[Darsithis]

You actually have a very large power disadvantage compared to classic players, but their arguments are all comparing boosters to these brand new folk of players who are all starting at level 1 apparently and then speaking like they are one of these players and saying it hurts them. Such an odd take by most of these people.

Gear rarity certainly can mean there will be a power gap, true. You could run those dungeons 1000 times and never achieve that full set the boost gives. However, like I assume you’re also realizing, by the time you level to 70 to participate in the real game, the end-game, you’re all on the same playing field

[Ludvig]

K and what you are saying isn't taking into consideration a relaunched version of the game. Blizz want people to play TBC but they realize many people would not play it if they have to grind through 1-58. So they are putting in the option to ONE TIME skip to 58. You can argue if it is p2w or not until you are blue in the face but it is happening.

They could just add recruit-a-friend again which existed towards the end of TBC if they wanted people to not have to do the "grind" of 1-58. There are also already improvements for the vanilla part of leveling implemented in TBC such as less exp needed and more quests. But of course they have to ruin the integrity of the game and just add a boost lol. I'm not arguing about whether or not it's p2w since it's pretty much the definition of p2w, there's no argument to be had.

[arkanon]

Not trolling, but i will buy the skip for TBC Classic purely because i have less time to play WoW and rather get to the end game quicker. Levelling in Classic was the one thing that put me off so i never played as it took me 6 months to get to 60 in Vanilla lol, so from my perspective this 1 time introduction is great.

Looking forward to spamming chain heal...

I think its something a LOT of people will take advantage of. I know plenty of people who either;

- Started classic and bailed because of the leveling
- Didnt even start because of the leveling
- Got one toon to max level, and wanted more, but couldnt bring themselves to level again
- Would NOT carry their main through to TBC and would prefer to play a different class.

I can definitely see plenty of people from all those groups, and many other groups paying this one off price to get one max level toon.

[Ludvig]

Well it isn't a breathing, organic world. Even when the game was in Vanilla paid services came along such as server transfers. Sure was weird seeing someone that was a 'breathing organic' person just appear on the server at max level and all that. It ruined immersion. Oh wait, no it didn't.

Apples and oranges.

[Kyanion]

They could just add recruit-a-friend again which existed towards the end of TBC if they wanted people to not have to do the "grind" of 1-58. There are also already improvements for the vanilla part of leveling implemented in TBC such as less exp needed and more quests. But of course they have to ruin the integrity of the game and just add a boost lol. I'm not arguing about whether or not it's p2w since it's pretty much the definition of p2w, there's no argument to be had.

And they changed the recruit a friend program once already. Also wouldn't that be paying for an advantage as that person now levels faster than someone else? So in this hypothetical they hit 58 faster and then have paid to win? Forcing people to play through shitty classic wow won't get people playing TBC, it'll just have them do something else, costing Blizz money.

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Apples and oranges.

paid service and paid service.

[Fisher557]

You made the claim that it provides an advantage - I asked you what that advantage is, and you said "i can solo dungeons". I explained the following:

- You still had to level that main toon to max level
- You can put the lowbie on follow, but you cannot and are not running around with the power of two characters (this is the first of your many fallacies)
- You are not able to do anything that a normal player is able to do, whether its a friend, a stranger, or someone you give gold to.
- You dont gain access to any content a fresh player does not have access to
- You are not able to complete any content a fresh player is unable to complete

So again, you made the claim, its up to you to show what advantage it offers, because so far your only examples are perfectly viable for any player.

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Who said it was a loss to me?

Your bullet list is completely irrelevant, once again I’m going to stop reading once you start rambling nonsense because I know how you work.

You said, pay to win is any advantage at all. I just gave you an example of an advantage. You can talk your way around that advantage all you want, just like I can tlak my way around the advantage of a 1-58 boost.

But you said it’s any advantage. I listed the advantage. You lose.

[Ludvig]

And they changed the recruit a friend program once already. Also wouldn't that be paying for an advantage as that person now levels faster than someone else? So in this hypothetical they hit 58 faster and then have paid to win? Forcing people to play through shitty classic wow won't get people playing TBC, it'll just have them do something else, costing Blizz money.

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paid service and paid service.

No, you're not paying for recruit-a-friend. You just let your friend who wants to play the game create an account and you link your account to his and there you go. I don't care if they changed RAF on retail, bring back the TBC version instead.

With server transfer, you're not paying to skip a part of the game. And it was there in TBC, boosts weren't. Disgusting crap like boosts shouldn't be anywhere near here, but what can you expect from the garbage that is modern Blizzard.

[arkanon]

Your bullet list is completely irrelevant, once again I’m going to stop reading once you start rambling nonsense because I know how you work.

You said, pay to win is any advantage at all. I just gave you an example of an advantage. You can talk your way around that advantage all you want, just like I can tlak my way around the advantage of a 1-58 boost.

But you said it’s any advantage. I listed the advantage. You lose.

No, you listed something you THOUGHT was an advantage, and that argument has been entirely dismantled - thats why you wont address any of the points raised, because you know they are accurate and true - unlike your repeated claims of "im not reading beyond the first sentence, although I will quote and respond directly to this thing you said in your third sentence"

There is no advantage, and i have proven that.

[Ringthane]

Of course I’m getting fuckingworked up over it. I have a fucking right to express my anger that every aspect of our lives are becoming hyper-minmaxed for profit with predatory microtransaction practices and bullshit. My question is why the FUCK aren’t more people this angry? Why the FUCK don’t people express their fucking anger anymore? It’s fucking baffling what the world is fuckijg turning to and people are taken aback when people SUDDENLY show a little bit of fucking human PASSION?

Because we're in the middle of a pandemic where 500,000 Americans have died. Because rioters stormed the Capitol a month and a half ago and the last President tried to steal the election because he knows he's going to be charged in criminal court for his crimes and he owes a bunch of people a lot of money he can't pay back. Because people are literally freezing to death in Texas because they didn't have power or heat, and are still out of water.

Read the room, dude. There are so many more things to get upset over than a bunch of pixels in a stupid video game. I'll bet you don't get nearly this worked up over things in the real world that you could actually help change. Keyboard warriors, we have found your king.

[Drusin]

Because we're in the middle of a pandemic where 500,000 Americans have died. Because rioters stormed the Capitol a month and a half ago and the last President tried to steal the election because he knows he's going to be charged in criminal court for his crimes and he owes a bunch of people a lot of money he can't pay back. Because people are literally freezing to death in Texas because they didn't have power or heat, and are still out of water.

Read the room, dude. There are so many more things to get upset over than a bunch of pixels in a stupid video game. I'll bet you don't get nearly this worked up over things in the real world that you could actually help change. Keyboard warriors, we have found your king.

Everyone has their problems, don't expect people to give a fuck about others problems

[Kyanion]

snip

Settle down man, we're on a video game forum discussing things a company is doing in said game. I think everyone is well aware the stakes involved are very low and don't really super matter. The person you are quoting is more of a parody of a poster than a real poster showing outrage.

[Nzx]

The value is advancing your character. It's an MMORPG, you're supposed to start from zero and improve.

Yeah, I'm starting The Burning Crusade from zero. TBC starts at 58, which is when you can walk through the Dark Portal. The equivalent "boost" in Classic would be a level 1 "boost".

[Kikazz]

It's a p2w feature that anyone who wants to be competitive on alliance shaman or horde paladin will have to use, for sure.

did you miss the part where the boosts cant be used on the NEW RACES.

Draeni and Belf where the only able body races for Shaman and Paladin resepectively for horde/alliance.

[Fisher557]

No, you listed something you THOUGHT was an advantage, and that argument has been entirely dismantled - thats why you wont address any of the points raised, because you know they are accurate and true - unlike your repeated claims of "im not reading beyond the first sentence, although I will quote and respond directly to this thing you said in your third sentence"

There is no advantage, and i have proven that.

There is an advantage, the fact that you can run yourself through the dungeon yourself and carry yourself while someone with one account can’t, is the definition of an advantage. You understand I can make a completely bullet list for the boost as well to dismantle your argument that it’s not an advantage as well if you really want to do this lol.

Getting the 58 boost

-doesn’t get you anything you can’t get if you don’t buy it in the first place (does this sound familiar?)
-you still have to level to 70 anyway (does this sound familiar)
-you don’t have any professions so you still need to go back and do those.


I can go either route you want to buddy. Do you want to dismantle ‘advantages’ and explain away why they aren’t REALLY advantages, or do you still want to claim every advantage no matter how small is pay to win.

Honestly I can go either way, you’re so wrong I literally can’t lose this argument if I tried to.