Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Yes, you’ve spent 5 posts trying to use a 58 beating a level 1 as the basis for your argument on how a game is pay to win. Time well spent.
    So it IS power

    Thank you, finally, for the reply!

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    So it IS power

    Thank you, finally, for the reply!
    You waited an hour for someone to answer that a 58 will beat a level 1 in a duel?

    I’d ask what you think was won, but given your definition, I’ll pass.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying. Next please.

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    Gold Boosts.
    Not the same thing because you actually need to be logged into the game. The character boost just requires you to spend money and you are IMMEDIATELY level 58.

  4. #744
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    $40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.
    Your comparison is so bad.. Is the boosted 58 sitting there waiting for 3 months, or is it progressing in level and gear, as well?

    With a boost, youre literally buying an advantage. Thats a p2w element. You can try to dodge and obfuscate all you want, but at the end of the day, youre plainly wrong.
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-06-13 at 08:56 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Your comparison is so bad.. Is the boosted 58 sitting there waiting for 3 months, or is it progressing in level and gear, as well?

    With a boost, youre literally buying an advantage. Thats a p2w element. You can try to dodge and obfuscate all you want, but at the end of the day, youre plainly wrong.
    There's a reason you have to caveat with "element of p2w", likely because telling someone their "advantage" is being able to actually play the re-release is a hard sell.

    Every version of p2w I've encountered has generally been things unobtainable without real money - eg better weapons, ammo, perks, etc. The "advantage" and power you keep referring to in WoW doesn't fit into that category, and given the circumstances (re-release, separate Classic, TBC, etc), it just doesn't scream "WINNING" to me... It actually feels like losing if I had felt compelled to pay having already purchased and cleared TBC once.

    You can make it a bigger deal than it is, but this just isn't represented in-game. Nobody's running around screaming "omg these boosted characters have such an advantage".

  6. #746
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    There's a reason you have to caveat with "element of p2w", likely because telling someone their "advantage" is being able to actually play the re-release is a hard sell.

    Every version of p2w I've encountered has generally been things unobtainable without real money - eg better weapons, ammo, perks, etc. The "advantage" and power you keep referring to in WoW doesn't fit into that category, and given the circumstances (re-release, separate Classic, TBC, etc), it just doesn't scream "WINNING" to me... It actually feels like losing if I had felt compelled to pay having already purchased and cleared TBC once.

    You can make it a bigger deal than it is, but this just isn't represented in-game. Nobody's running around screaming "omg these boosted characters have such an advantage".
    Your anecdotal experiences mean nothing to this conversation, I hope you understand that. Many p2w elements allow players to bypass roadblocks, time sinks, or inconveniences with real money. Wow retail and classic both offer that in the way of level boosts. How you feel about it is inconsequential to the facts at hand.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Your anecdotal experiences mean nothing to this conversation, I hope you understand that. Many p2w elements allow players to bypass roadblocks, time sinks, or inconveniences with real money. Wow retail and classic both offer that in the way of level boosts. How you feel about it its inconsequential to the facts at hand.
    And your obtuse revisions to the definition of "pay to win" are equally anecdotal. What, is your abrasive dismissal of in game experience supposed to drive your point home? Lmao. I've played p2w games, and it's clear the impact it has in-game.

  8. #748
    Boost is more then fine, there are plenty of players myself included that did not or want to play vanilla, but would love to play TBC with our friends now we dont have to spend 2 months leveling we can get right to the good stuff and this helps with server population as well which is an over all win for the health of the game.

  9. #749
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    And your obtuse revisions to the definition of "pay to win" are equally anecdotal.
    Using real money to bypass time sinks and/or gain power is not a revision, that is the definition.. Youre just delusional and white knighting for a company you like.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  10. #750
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

    Good try.
    Just because it is your stance doesn't mean it is the definition. It just means your stance is incorrect and you refuse to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Not the same thing because you actually need to be logged into the game. The character boost just requires you to spend money and you are IMMEDIATELY level 58.
    Ironically you need to be logged into the game to activate the Boost.

  11. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You waited an hour for someone to answer that a 58 will beat a level 1 in a duel?

    I’d ask what you think was won, but given your definition, I’ll pass.
    So since winning any game is pointless, letting people cheat is fine?

  12. #752
    Everyone is paying for their sub to play. Hence - Pay to win.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Using real money to bypass time sinks and/or gain power is not a revision, that is the definition.. Youre just delusional and white knighting for a company you like.
    Your refusal/inability to acknowledge nuance in a complicated circumstance (see: hundreds of replies here alone) != me white knighting. Not surprising you’d label someone that based on a single topic.

    When Cata launched with the first DE, I was able to play at exactly 12am, while box buyers had to wait to pick it up and install. According to your definition, that’s p2w. I was way ahead of my guildies by the time they installed and got through server queues.

    Tons of AAA titles on PSN let me buy the CE/Deluxe and start playing a day ahead. Apparently that’s p2w.

    Your incredibly narrow definition is convenient to your argument but fails on simple tests.

    And before you try to reply with “but…”, just remember: any real money to bypass time sinks is p2w, because apparently context just complicates the conversation for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xykotic View Post
    So since winning any game is pointless, letting people cheat is fine?
    Time is finite. Do you really want to waste it asking this kind of a question?

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

    That is all.
    This depends entirely on what an individual would consider "winning" in WoW.

    If someone views getting to max level as "winning" it certainly IS pay to win.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by panda040 View Post
    If someone views getting to max level as "winning" it certainly IS pay to win.
    "well if your goal is to just kill 1 raid boss, that means you won the game!"

    lmao

  16. #756
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Your refusal/inability to acknowledge nuance in a complicated circumstance (see: hundreds of replies here alone) != me white knighting. Not surprising you’d label someone that based on a single topic.

    When Cata launched with the first DE, I was able to play at exactly 12am, while box buyers had to wait to pick it up and install. According to your definition, that’s p2w. I was way ahead of my guildies by the time they installed and got through server queues.

    Tons of AAA titles on PSN let me buy the CE/Deluxe and start playing a day ahead. Apparently that’s p2w.

    Your incredibly narrow definition is convenient to your argument but fails on simple tests.

    And before you try to reply with “but…”, just remember: any real money to bypass time sinks is p2w, because apparently context just complicates the conversation for you.
    Lolwut? You should look up the definition of non-sequitur while you look up p2w, because youre way off and none of this is relevant..
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  17. #757
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You feeling personally injured by other people being level 58 through the boost is a YOU problem.
    I think you're misinterpreting the issue here. It's a game and the playing field is unfair.
    It’s created exactly zero problems for the community.
    The number on this thread says otherwise.
    No apocalyptic botting sprees, or sudden saturation of profession CDs. Just a bunch of Warriors/Mages switching to Hunters/Warlocks.
    That's very specific.
    Expecting Activision to not do Activision things, pretending Classic was some return to Indie Blizzard, and trying to reshape the definition of p2w is also a YOU issue.
    Is this a meme reference?

    It’s one thing to be like “I don’t like this”, but this whole “go back to retail/another game” while you refuse to just accept that, despite its faults, it’s an enjoyable game.
    Less enjoyable.
    You wanna complain? Fine.
    Actually yes.
    But to take ownership of a game based on what it was like FOURTEEN YEARS and literally hundreds of employees ago is a little too “get off my lawn” to take seriously.
    I don't see a problem with this. If Activision wants to ruin their future by catering to more whales then it'll be a short lived profitable experience. After WOTLK nobody will have any reason to continue to play classic, because the community feels that Cataclysm and up is when WoW declined. Fix these issues now or forever file for bankruptcy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Not the same thing because you actually need to be logged into the game. The character boost just requires you to spend money and you are IMMEDIATELY level 58.
    58 is about 58 times more powerful than level 1. That's simple P2W math.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    "well if your goal is to just kill 1 raid boss, that means you won the game!"

    lmao
    I know, it sounds ridiculous but that is the truth. MMO's have no defined ending, therefore, it's up to the player to determine what "winning" is. For most i would assume its getting BiS and clearing endgame content and or full pvp gear with a high rank. Both of which can be achieved with real life money in retail at this point, sadly.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Just because it is your stance doesn't mean it is the definition. It just means your stance is incorrect and you refuse to change it.

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    Ironically you need to be logged into the game to activate the Boost.
    I love how the only thing you can do is nitpick one part of my comment. Which just further proves that paid character boosts are absolutely p2w.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

    Good try.
    So a game that charges you to skip a half hour grind is as much pay2win as one that let's you buy a cash-only amulet that doubles your damage output?

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