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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I think the actual problem is that the content is designed to be played with friends, and most people don't play with friends. This is the same problem raiding has always had. Most of the grouped content in the entire game has.
    Absolutely. The difference between pugging and doing mythic+ with friends is night and day.

    But since the logistics of getting 5 people together is so simple many can’t help but enter the pug meat grinder.

  2. #122
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I kinda agree with this. I'm not sure how M+ looks without the timer, but timed PVE content just feels so antithetical to why I play this type of game in the first place. It should feel like more of a challenge-at-your-own-pace. Someone leaves - run is dead. Someone goes dc - timer is fucked. Gogogogo - anxiety and toxicity triples. Most of the dungeon strat isn't even playing your class it's what route do we have to take. Just feels odd and not like the dungeons of old. Tactically dishing out CC, taking a mana break, chatting and discussing next pull, then executing that. Over and over until you got to the end of the dungeon.

    Let M+ just dial up the numbers and stuff, but let people take a break during the dungeon to piss or let out their dog. Timer just kills my interest completely.
    QFT - The few times I've run m+ I taped cardboard to my screen to obscure the huge countdown clock, only way to enjoy it however it's so cumbersome I've not done any in SL.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dug View Post
    I'll echo others the time limit is really lame and creates toxicity... just make the mobs tougher, dish out more mechanics that need to be dealt with, more use of CC etc.
    bcs nothing is more fun than crawling slowly through dungeon for over an hour just so some moron leaves before end for whatever reason and you can just go fuck yourself bcs you just killed a lot of time for no reason at all...
    think how pissed you are now when someone leaves after 20m before finishing dungeon and then think it would happen after hour...

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Dug View Post
    I'll echo others the time limit is really lame and creates toxicity... just make the mobs tougher, dish out more mechanics that need to be dealt with, more use of CC etc.
    Hard CC was used to mitigate massive damage to the tank. Because it was hard to maintain aggro kiting wasn’t as easy to do then.

    Now that tanks can maintain aggro easier, kiting is (and always has been) a much better way to mitigate tank damage than CC in terms of efficiency.

    So until tank aggro plummets (IMO bad idea) kiting is the default strat for mitigating tank damage since hard CC isn’t as efficient.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    @Overlordd:

    Speak for yourself, kid. I LOVE M+.

    Please enjoy my film SCHISM, a film festival winning short
    https://youtu.be/HjwQ8jBcoq8

  6. #126
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    I like M+ quite a bit. What I don't like is the community surrounding M+.

  7. #127
    Stood in the Fire
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    M+ is fun, IF you get invited to a group. Spending hours in the tool, because you play an undesired class/spec is not fun. Same problem in arenas/RBGs btw.

  8. #128
    Dunno what game OP is playing but this expansion's actually done the complete opposite. Show that people like running M+ even though it provides almost zero loot. For example my alt is almost full 213 PvP gear and have only 1 piece of M+ loot even though I've timed almost every key on +14/15. The community at that key level is still quite healthy even though the loot has been absolutely butchered in favor of PvP gearing. If that's not running it just for the fun of it then what is?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    Gear is the main motivator to get started with anything in an MMORPG. Look at how many people are playing PVP atm compared to BFA and Legion. recently helped boost some friends who have never PVP'd before to 2.4k in RBG's. they have their 2.4k now, and yet they want to keep playing, they want to do Arena, they want to push RBG, and are actively taking an interest in learning how to PVP. they came for the gear, stayed for the content.

    Same was true for me in Legion. I did M+ for gear, I spammed +15's to get tianforged rings, leech etc as a resto druid. this lead me into finding good player to play with, got picked up by a few grps, and started pushing, ended up enjoying it. I came for the gear, stayed for the content, eventually i managed to push for enough to qualify for the MDI time trials.

    With no motivation to learn these dungeons in the form of Loot, combined with most of the dungeon design as well as the most unbalanced meta we have ever seen (not just in M+, balancing in Raids and PVP is also the worst we have ever seen, and yes im including Vanilla wow.) I have not even done a +15 of every dungeon yet. I do 1-4 +15-17's a week and that is all.

    Loot matters as a motivator. but if M+ was as good and had as much depth as it did in Legion, I wouldnt even be bothering with PVP, i would be spamming M+ all day every day. #bringbackgearswapping

  10. #130
    M+ fun, Enemy Forces go brrrr

  11. #131
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Big agree, having gone from tank in Legion to melee dps in BFA. It only got worse as a melee from there, like they just systematically keep making the raids harder and harder for melee until the point where you wanted to reroll. Now they do it in M+ as well with affixes. I don't think adding Horrific Visions mechanics that exclusively screw over melee is fun. Visions weren't fun, that isn't fun.
    Yes, being challenged is fun, but running an obstacle course without the tools to do it is just idiotic and in this case, pointless.

    Not fun, not learning anything, not progressing = stupidity. (There's no point going back tanking because tanks need massive god damn buffs just to function these days, another idiotic happening going on)
    Wholeheartedly agree, especially with the last part. Tanking has always been the role with the biggest responsibilities (at least since M+ became a thing) and they've been making it systematically harder. Right now, I feel that my warrior tank is dressed in a pretty mage robe or something, with how badly things hurt. It isn't fun in the slightest, and certainly not in line AT ALL with what an armoured juggernaut should play like.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    People actually do enjoy M+ BUT:

    1. It's a bit like your "dream job" that has really low salary, sure you enjoy it but let be real, not getting any rewards is demotivating.
    2. While it's seasonal, you get 1 dungeon per couple of months, 90% of the time you are running same dungeons over and over again.

    3rd expansion in a row and M+ doesn't get any more focus, 8/8+2/8+2+1 dungeons per 2 years isn't really what i would call "bright feature".
    Now the rewards are capped too, seasonal affix isn't really ground breaking and you get punished for trying.
    I was really surprised they didnt build on the system tbh - it really is just more of the same and considering at its core the system already revolves around "more of the same" it doesnt really feel "loved".

    I dont really have a solution short of simply upping the number of dungeons, adding more M+ only dungeons (will make ppl cry) or adding a parallel system where the trash simply scales as normal, but no affixes, and those are instead on the BOSSES rather than the trash, and remove the timer, to shift the difficulty and focus, and give more single target focused players/builds/specs something to do other than raid bosses.

    I appreciate it would not be as popular as the current system, or at least expect it wouldnt be, but talking with friends over the years, this is what we would have preferred. It wouldnt "replace" raiding, but it would be a nice 5man alternative for off nights or alt nights.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Creedo View Post
    I love M+! However, being stuck at +14 keys now, I do not like how people decide to quit, leave, or not read-up/learn the mechanics. I have no problem pushing a key and depleting it, but I hate when people just leave with 2 mins left to finish. The community has made it so bad this time around. I actually don't mind running them over an over again as it feels good with different challenges each time based on your comp. Its the people.
    also imo dungeons in SL are designed way better than BFA dungeons, that alone makes it more enjoyable for me to do M+

    getting a loot is probably the last thing I think about when I want to do a M+

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Absolutely. The difference between pugging and doing mythic+ with friends is night and day.

    But since the logistics of getting 5 people together is so simple many can’t help but enter the pug meat grinder.
    To be fair, even running with a grp of 4 friends and 1 pug can still be enough to raise the blood pressure a bit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    also imo dungeons in SL are designed way better than BFA dungeons, that alone makes it more enjoyable for me to do M+

    getting a loot is probably the last thing I think about when I want to do a M+
    I didnt realise how much i disliked the BfA dungeons until i did the SL ones - imo, they are much more like small, less complex raids rather than just.....silly little gimmick content. I felt like a lot of the dungeons in BfA were designed in a "can we do this?" mentality rather than a "should we do this?" mentality.

  15. #135
    "i dont enjoy something so NOBODY likes it" the thread

  16. #136
    Well of course, m+ has no redeeming qualities. A system like it has no place in an mmo, and it attracts people that have no place in an mmo. It is complete and utter garbage.

  17. #137
    I like M+ as a system. But blizzard has been designing really convoluted dungeons because of M+ and MDI type esports. M+ isn't what's bad, it's just most of the dungeons are shitty and unenjoyable to run.

  18. #138
    i checked just out of curiosity...bfa season 3 pushed keys compared to season 1 shadowlands. 26key for BFA, 25 or whatever now for SL.
    comparing the numbers for +15. 506k for BFA vs 673k for SL.
    bfa season 2 is even lower at 455k with +27 max key.
    if anything the participation is higher on 15 than ever before.
    pushing wise participation is higher than before. (15-20)
    it loses at 20+ and 1-14. but not that much till the end of the season i believe.
    so from what i gather people are way more intereseted in pushing m+ than ever before. you make a post like this mid season while also being at least half wrong without providing any numbers.
    how are these half ass threads not deleted, a toddler could provide more quality.

  19. #139
    Dreadlord Konteil's Avatar
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    personally i liek the m+ challenge. what i dont like is the M+ heroes that are still all gogo go go go go about it and wipe the groups or the massivly elitist R-IO people that wont take yo uregardless of how you play if you havent run a million of it and have a stupid high score . need to find me a guild lol
    “Listen, three eyes,” he said, “don’t you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.”

  20. #140
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Absolutely. The difference between pugging and doing mythic+ with friends is night and day.

    But since the logistics of getting 5 people together is so simple many can’t help but enter the pug meat grinder.
    I wouldn't give this game more than a fucking day if I didn't have a group
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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