Thrall's panel really shows how out of touch the writer's are with the Horde.

[Overlordd]

Here's the TL;DR list:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nscript/877992

Some points I'd like to talk about:
Orcs:
Thrall is seen as a "Orc raised as a Human". So far, we were always under the assumption that the Orcs were tricked into the whole demon blood thing. Until Grommash told Thrall they took it voluntarily. One thing that WoD added was that their planet was full of life that tried to kill them. Even the rocks to the very plants were all carnivores. You can imagine what a brutal world that is, so the Orcs are "bloodthirsty" from nature. They were raised in a hostile world.

But then again, does that mean that Orcs can't thrive without conflict? Since Thrall was the only succesfull Orc on building a society that involves Orcs, but also Taurens and Trolls included. Does that mean Orcs are a lesser, dumber race?

Tauren:
Christie Golden said: "Taurens are the moral compass of the Horde". After she chuckled saying that she's not biased clearly. Okay, so Golden really does mean that the Horde is evil in its own. That Orcs, Undead, Trolls, Blood Elves, even Goblins and the Pandaren that joined under Garrosh' rule are all evil and that the Taurens act like their moral compass. Basically saying that the Tauren are what's keeping the Horde together, as they're just a bunch of ragtag goons, who can't stick together. (I'm also going to assume that there are no more Pandaren left but a handful, if what Golden says is true. No Pandaren would want to join a faction where only one race has a "moral compass")

They also stated that Cairne was the most influential friend Thrall had. How? What about Doomhammer and Drek'thar? What about them? Saurfang? Why Cairne? Why couldn't they have left Cairne to be inspirational for his no good son Baine?

Conclusion
I don't think this panel showed much what we didn't know already. They basically retold Thrall's storyline, then gave their own views on it. Views that weren't represented into the game at all. Yet they want the player to believe that what they say is true. Tauren's are supposed to be the moral compass of the Horde, yet all they do in game is be moral cowards. That is if we have to think that Baine represents the entirety of the Taurens, and God do I hope they do not think that.

Because all Baine did was not speak up when Sylvanas was blighting his own soldiers, raising them as skeletons afterwards. He did not speak up against the burning of Teldrassil. He only spoke out when Jaina was about the get hurt. If being a moral compass means running to the Alliance with your tail between your leg like some kind of traitor, then by all means turn the Taurens into bloodthirsty brutes aswell, since that's how Christie Golden sees the Horde.

Does being a moral compass mean that all you do is bow down to the Alliance and report to them whenever shit in your faction hits the fan? Does this mean that the Alliance is the morally good faction?

As for the Orcs, I don't know how you can save this race. It's basically made canon that Orcs are a race that are from a nature point, evil. They're bloodthirsty, without the demon blood. This has been established since WoD, where the Frostwolves are the only clan on "securing that beast within". While the other Orcs glorify their nature. (hence why frostwolves were the good guys)
And as for Thrall being the only reasonable leader that led them, it was all thanks to him being raised by humans.

So we can safely assume Orcs will always have some play as a villian role. Perhaps that the glorification of being brutish barbarians is over, considering the political statement some of the writers have made in the past about adressing toxic masculinity.

I don't think these writers are fit for the world of Warcraft. They have such a hard time depicting what they mean in the story itself, even though they're the ones making it. They come off as arrogant. They do not wish to build upon the lore and pretty much the foundation of what Metzen and other writers created. They instead want to tear it all down to install their own version and even some political statements.

This is just sad.

[Squigglyo]

This reads like you hated the story already so anything that was said you were going to take badly.
There are so many points that were made that you have spun into a hate for the direction of the story.

- What you see as 'evil by nature' can easily be seen as 'tough by neccesitity'. Their bloodthirst comes from needing to be tough in a tough world. They are a warlike race, they have become more civilised as time has gone on, which is to be expected. Any warlike race would follow the exact same path when presented with less war and more safety/civilisation.
- 'Moral compass' doesnt mean standing up for every little issue and certainly doesnt mean making yourself a target to an obviously hostile leader.
- Taking the blood voluntarily and being tricked arent mutally exclusive
- Most of what Christie says you have twisted. Taurens being the moral compass simply means that out of all of the races they are the most neutral, the most likely to have issues with war, etc.
- Since WC3 Cairne has been in Thrall's ear as his advisor and friend. Doomhammer was a major character but relatively minor in the timeline of Thrall building the horde in regards to his involvement, Drek'thar is old and not involved in much, certainly not hanging around Thrall, again Major character, but minor in the grand scheme.
- Thrall being 'raised' by humans opened him up to a different civilisation, a different world. He met good humans and bad ones, thus his leadership style isnt all about killing all humans.


Any good leader on whatever side of the faction war, fights for peace.
Be it peace through victory (kill everyone), peace through peace (just stop fighting and make friends) or peace by assimilation (merging and/or alliances), depends on who is calling the shots and we can see the progress made in each major conflict when different people are in charge of each army.

[geco]

Even the Tauren as the moral compass of the Horde is a mistake.
The Tauren are not the Moral guide of the Horde. They are more like the Trolls or the Belfos.

In the great moral moments that BFA preceded us. There was no Tauren. The Tauren only came out to help his friend Jaina.
In great moral moments there is usually a Troll. The great moral pjs. Voljn, Zekan, Talanji. Those who act out of morality are usually Trolls.

And the Morale of the Horde is the morale of the Belfries. I mean, Hypocrecia. Tiral lose her and hide her hand from her. Thing that with the Belfos is great. Not with the rest of the Horde.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

- 'Moral compass' doesnt mean standing up for every little issue and certainly doesnt mean making yourself a target to an obviously hostile leader.
- Most of what Christie says you have twisted. Taurens being the moral compass simply means that out of all of the races they are the most neutral, the most likely to have issues with war, etc.

You can’t be a moral compass and stand by/defend a genocide.

The old Tauren/writers had an actual grasp on what being a moral compass entailed which is why Cairne stoop up to garrosh because of a few night elfs while Baine does nothing even after the majority of the race were killed off. The new writers want to frame Baine the same way his father was but they frankly just suck at it which is rather pathetic when they have Carine right there to use as an example.

[LionSinMaikeru]

as they're just a bunch of ragtag goons, who can't stick together.

I mean...yeah? Were we playing the same game? This has always been the Horde that I've seen. A bunch of separate races that are together not because they share core beliefs but because they need each other - an alliance of necessity. If they weren't allied with one another they'd be easy pickings for the Alliance and any other force sizeable enough to deal with them.


---

Orcs - they're the backbone / start.

Trolls - were constantly being picked-off by multiple enemies -the ogres made them flee STV and then when they settled on Darkspear they were being constantly attacked by Murlocs then Humans. It was pure luck that they got involved with the Horde / Thrall, who were hiding on the Island. The trolls joining the Horde is what enabled the Horde to have the manpower to actually challenge the Alliance. But if the Trolls were never bothered they'd have happily stayed in STV just living their best life.

Tauren - they were nomadic for centuries and constantly moving due to their enemies, the Centaurs, picking them off steadily over time. They were almost extinct until Cairne reached out to the invading Orcs / Horde and offered an alliance with Thrall. Thrall / the orcs helped with the Centaur problem, so the Tauren owed them allegiance. But if the Tauren had it their way, they'd be living peacefully in the plains somewhere NOT involved in constant violence / war.

Forsaken - this one is even more obvious. The Forsaken simply joined the Horde because they had no other option. The Alliance and/or the Scarlet Crusade would have seen them dead. Sylvanas had to convince even the Horde to take them and promised their alliegence and power among the ranks. If Sylvanas / The Forsaken could have stood on their own or been welcome back by their people on the Alliance they would have preferred that.

Blood Elves - see above. The Blood Elves were once part of the Alliance and would have happily rejoined if not for Jaina's bullcrap. There was some tenseness between the Alliance and the Blood Elves, so they were SOL there. They were with the Horde because Sylvanas showed them kindness and offered them help. But not necessarily because they truly want to be there.

Pandaren - again, see above. Honestly, it makes little sense that they're on the Horde.

Goblins - Thrall offered them a better deal than the Alliance did.

---

But the point is, pretty much everyone who is part of the Horde is there out of a matter of convenience. Where-as pretty much all races in the Alliance have been allied for generations. The Horde has had so much in-fighting and swapped through so many leaders that her summization isn't too far off.

[Wangming]

Ehm what did you expect? They are orcs. Their leader is the WARchief. Their healthcare system consist of bullying people with disabilities. Their most famous historical figures and heroes have names like Hellscream, Doomhammer, Deadeye, Bladefist. Saurfang is one of the tamest ones and even he is named after an animalistic body part used for rip and tear. Litereally fuck all about their culture suggests you can become important in Orcish society without doing a bunch of killing. It has always been like this so being surprised about this is a little late.

You could try to write stories about famous Orc chefs or florists, but considering how many people get constipation at the mere mention of Mists of Pandaria, I don't think this is the right franchise for that.

[Aucald]

This is less the writers being "out of touch" with the Horde and more than the Horde is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and some of those things are mutually incompatible. All the way back in WC3 Thrall posits the Tauren as the moral center of the nascent Horde with the admission that he saw in the Tauren an ideal of what the Orcs could be minus the influence of the Legion and their own penchant to succumb to their innate barbarism (a product of their violent and brutal home-world). Some players, however, want an "evil" faction to stand in defiance and contrast to the Alliance as the "good" faction - and they champion leaders like Garrosh and Sylvanas who underscore that essential divide. The Horde envisioned all the way back in WC3 wasn't meant to be an evil faction, though; it was more meant to be Chaotic Good to the Alliance's Lawful Good. Rougher, primitive, more enterprising, less refined - a coalition based on mutual needs as opposed to a monolithic hierarchy or a league of nations.

[geco]

Are there so many players who want the Horde with an evil faction?
Because I always see more interest from Blizzard to make the Gallows look like evil monsters. Than from the Horde players themselves to see themselves as monsters.

Fighting for yours does not make you an evil Monster. And that's what Horde players often want.

[Thelxi]

Horde has gone to shit without Sylvanus.

[Kithelle]

Ehm what did you expect? They are orcs. Their leader is the WARchief. Their healthcare system consist of bullying people with disabilities. Their most famous historical figures and heroes have names like Hellscream, Doomhammer, Deadeye, Bladefist. Saurfang is one of the tamest ones and even he is named after an animalistic body part used for rip and tear. Litereally fuck all about their culture suggests you can become important in Orcish society without doing a bunch of killing. It has always been like this so being surprised about this is a little late.

You could try to write stories about famous Orc chefs or florists, but considering how many people get constipation at the mere mention of Mists of Pandaria, I don't think this is the right franchise for that.

And look what happened to him, he fought and died for his belief that the war was wrong...and even after being betrayed by Sylvanas and showing her true colors, Horde players still hate him.

I guess just like how Thaly didn't like being told the truth that her people have a history of treachery and abandonment, some players just don't like the truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Horde has gone to shit without Sylvanus.

Horde has gone to shit because of Garrosh and Sylvanas

[Oneirophobia]

You can’t be a moral compass and stand by/defend a genocide.

The old Tauren/writers had an actual grasp on what being a moral compass entailed which is why Cairne stoop up to garrosh because of a few night elfs while Baine does nothing even after the majority of the race were killed off. The new writers want to frame Baine the same way his father was but they frankly just suck at it which is rather pathetic when they have Carine right there to use as an example.

I don't think they intend Baine to be his father, honestly. If they wanted Cairne they wouldn't have killed him off. They wanted someone who wasn't ready to lead a people and by no means has the courage to "stand up" to bigger, scarier authority figures. Baine is the way he's supposed to be because they can't have faction conflict after faction conflict with the Tauren involved unless the Tauren are spoken for by someone who is too afraid of confrontation to do anything about morally unjust actions the Horde asks of them. Similarly, the Alliance is run by Anduin because he is practically the only Alliance character save for perhaps Velen who will forgive the Horde over and over and over again instead of bringing in the Vindicaar, the Night Warrior, and about 14 other god-tier resources his faction has access to, to turn Durotar into glass.

TL;DR - Characters like Baine exist to prolong the tired af faction conflict. You can't have every expac in a row be faction conflict related, but you also don't want to ever end the faction conflict. Therefore, you need weak-ass leadership who both won't do what's necessary to end the conflict, but also won't do whats necessary to stop villains from causing more conflict.

[tromage2]

Dislike the Tauren race alot, they are almost not a Horde race at all.
For me this just showed that these writers will break the Horde faction and turn us more and more into a red Alliance faction.

And this whole hype around the meeting between Thrall and Draka is also very wierd.
They never seen each other, when a adopted child meet their biological parents later in life it is a wierd situation for both sides.
These writers act like Thrall and Draka will have a connection from the start what is pretty wierd.
Kinda feels like when Ner'zhul told Grom (WoD) that Garrosh was his son, but he never was his son and they never had a son/father relationship but suddenly Grom had father feelings what made 0 sense.

[bagina]

Too many cooks. And not a single good one :P

[StationaryHawk]

You can’t be a moral compass and stand by/defend a genocide.

The old Tauren/writers had an actual grasp on what being a moral compass entailed which is why Cairne stoop up to garrosh because of a few night elfs while Baine does nothing even after the majority of the race were killed off. The new writers want to frame Baine the same way his father was but they frankly just suck at it which is rather pathetic when they have Carine right there to use as an example.

It's not as if Baine challenging Sylvanas to a Mak'gora would have accomplished anything. Saurfang's own Mak'gora should have ended in vain, but that wouldn't have moved the plot forward so they had Sylvanas spill the beans on her own.

Cairne knew a one-on-one confrontation with Garrosh had a chance of succeeding.

[geco]

And look what happened to him, he fought and died for his belief that the war was wrong...and even after being betrayed by Sylvanas and showing her true colors, Horde players still hate him.

I guess just like how Thaly didn't like being told the truth that her people have a history of treachery and abandonment, some players just don't like the truth.

After committing his third genocide. After failing the call of Honor and training Sylvanas after Teldrazzil.
Varock is the worst of the orcs. Because he was the one who was supposed to be honorable. The one who fought for the right thing. The orc that reformed.

And it turns out that he has no Honor and that he moves only because Anduin comes to tell him that he moves his ass. With a plan that makes no sense in the least.

Debatable. Also challenging her would be a largely symbolic gesture for the Horde and if nothing else would prove he's not a spineless pussy and will put his money where his mouth is. Alas.

If I had done it at the beginning of BFA and not at the end, yes.

But in truth his plan was to hide until the Alianz solves everything.

[bagina]

It's not as if Baine challenging Sylvanas to a Mak'gora would have accomplished anything.

Debatable. Also challenging her would be a largely symbolic gesture and an example for the Horde and if nothing else would prove he's not a spineless pussy and will put his money where his mouth is. Alas. Accomplice by inaction.

[VinceVega]

Here's the TL;DR list:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nscript/877992

Some points I'd like to talk about:
Orcs:
Thrall is seen as a "Orc raised as a Human". So far, we were always under the assumption that the Orcs were tricked into the whole demon blood thing. Until Grommash told Thrall they took it voluntarily. One thing that WoD added was that their planet was full of life that tried to kill them. Even the rocks to the very plants were all carnivores. You can imagine what a brutal world that is, so the Orcs are "bloodthirsty" from nature. They were raised in a hostile world.

But then again, does that mean that Orcs can't thrive without conflict? Since Thrall was the only succesfull Orc on building a society that involves Orcs, but also Taurens and Trolls included. Does that mean Orcs are a lesser, dumber race?

Tauren:
Christie Golden said: "Taurens are the moral compass of the Horde". After she chuckled saying that she's not biased clearly. Okay, so Golden really does mean that the Horde is evil in its own. That Orcs, Undead, Trolls, Blood Elves, even Goblins and the Pandaren that joined under Garrosh' rule are all evil and that the Taurens act like their moral compass. Basically saying that the Tauren are what's keeping the Horde together, as they're just a bunch of ragtag goons, who can't stick together. (I'm also going to assume that there are no more Pandaren left but a handful, if what Golden says is true. No Pandaren would want to join a faction where only one race has a "moral compass")

They also stated that Cairne was the most influential friend Thrall had. How? What about Doomhammer and Drek'thar? What about them? Saurfang? Why Cairne? Why couldn't they have left Cairne to be inspirational for his no good son Baine?

Conclusion
I don't think this panel showed much what we didn't know already. They basically retold Thrall's storyline, then gave their own views on it. Views that weren't represented into the game at all. Yet they want the player to believe that what they say is true. Tauren's are supposed to be the moral compass of the Horde, yet all they do in game is be moral cowards. That is if we have to think that Baine represents the entirety of the Taurens, and God do I hope they do not think that.

Because all Baine did was not speak up when Sylvanas was blighting his own soldiers, raising them as skeletons afterwards. He did not speak up against the burning of Teldrassil. He only spoke out when Jaina was about the get hurt. If being a moral compass means running to the Alliance with your tail between your leg like some kind of traitor, then by all means turn the Taurens into bloodthirsty brutes aswell, since that's how Christie Golden sees the Horde.

Does being a moral compass mean that all you do is bow down to the Alliance and report to them whenever shit in your faction hits the fan? Does this mean that the Alliance is the morally good faction?

As for the Orcs, I don't know how you can save this race. It's basically made canon that Orcs are a race that are from a nature point, evil. They're bloodthirsty, without the demon blood. This has been established since WoD, where the Frostwolves are the only clan on "securing that beast within". While the other Orcs glorify their nature. (hence why frostwolves were the good guys)
And as for Thrall being the only reasonable leader that led them, it was all thanks to him being raised by humans.

So we can safely assume Orcs will always have some play as a villian role. Perhaps that the glorification of being brutish barbarians is over, considering the political statement some of the writers have made in the past about adressing toxic masculinity.

I don't think these writers are fit for the world of Warcraft. They have such a hard time depicting what they mean in the story itself, even though they're the ones making it. They come off as arrogant. They do not wish to build upon the lore and pretty much the foundation of what Metzen and other writers created. They instead want to tear it all down to install their own version and even some political statements.

This is just sad.

That part about Golden is like the James peterson "So you are saying..." meme.
She says one thing and you jump to a weird conclusion not supported by anything.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think they intend Baine to be his father, honestly. If they wanted Cairne they wouldn't have killed him off. They wanted someone who wasn't ready to lead a people and by no means has the courage to "stand up" to bigger, scarier authority figures. Baine is the way he's supposed to be because they can't have faction conflict after faction conflict with the Tauren involved unless the Tauren are spoken for by someone who is too afraid of confrontation to do anything about morally unjust actions the Horde asks of them. Similarly, the Alliance is run by Anduin because he is practically the only Alliance character save for perhaps Velen who will forgive the Horde over and over and over again instead of bringing in the Vindicaar, the Night Warrior, and about 14 other god-tier resources his faction has access to, to turn Durotar into glass.

TL;DR - Characters like Baine exist to prolong the tired af faction conflict. You can't have every expac in a row be faction conflict related, but you also don't want to ever end the faction conflict. Therefore, you need weak-ass leadership who both won't do what's necessary to end the conflict, but also won't do whats necessary to stop villains from causing more conflict.

See I could totally buy this for mop but the way they had Baine not so much as make a peep about the night elfs or any thing else until he just does a 180 about Jiana brother makes it come across as them just writing him horribly and then having an "oh ya he should be moral" realization half way though.

[Kuntantee]

If Baine is the moral compass of the Horde, which points to "P" as in "Pussy" or C as in "Coward". Then I guess I will reroll to ally. Even allies are better than that lowlife. Wasn't it Baine that claimed Camp Taurajo massacre was OK?

If Horde wanted to play Ally, they'd just do that. Writers can stick "Horde as Red Ally" narrative to their you-know-wheres and they should stop telling us how we should feel. I do not give a crap about Teldrassil.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's not as if Baine challenging Sylvanas to a Mak'gora would have accomplished anything. Saurfang's own Mak'gora should have ended in vain, but that wouldn't have moved the plot forward so they had Sylvanas spill the beans on her own.

Cairne knew a one-on-one confrontation with Garrosh had a chance of succeeding.

Baine wouldn't even have to challenge her to a Mak'gora they just needed to have any showing of him acting out and make it be because of the tree not just some drop of a hat Rebellion because of one undead.