What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[Necromantic]

*snip*

In FF, you can initiate a kick if the person is not up to par. The game will not punish someone for asking what's going on, stating facts that contain no insults (Whm, why are you not moving out of the AoE?) but it will punish people for all the unnecessary comments they make while pretending they're "just helping" like (wtf whm?? Why are you so bad?)

I understand, people get frustrated but they're too quick to pass judgment.

What is "Bellular?" If he's one of those "streamers", why is his opinion important? If it's that wrong, more reason not to watch.

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It's kind of a nuanced discussion though because while I agree that all FFXIV's system basically only exists to protect people's feelings (since you're definitely still getting roasted on discord) and to present that as definitive proof that the FFXIV community is less toxic is disingenuous.

The problem with WoW's system is while it theoretically allows for reasoned debate or constructive criticism 99% of the time in a failed group you're still going to get radio silence except on the third wipe the rogue doing near tank dps will type 'shit heelz' and insta drop.

It exists to stop people who clearly cannot compose themselves or have anger issues from bashing on people who don't play the game all day long. If those people are so upset about it that they're taking it to discord, they have deeper issues.

The toxicity of it's community is subjective but I've posted on many forums for both and the official forums and subreddit for FFXIV are way worse than WoW. I'm currently a FFXIV player but at least on the WoW subreddit, new or inexperienced players can ask questions without being berated.

[Raisei]

It's kind of a nuanced discussion though because while I agree that all FFXIV's system basically only exists to protect people's feelings (since you're definitely still getting roasted on discord) and to present that as definitive proof that the FFXIV community is less toxic is disingenuous.

The problem with WoW's system is while it theoretically allows for reasoned debate or constructive criticism 99% of the time in a failed group you're still going to get radio silence except on the third wipe the rogue doing near tank dps will type 'shit heelz' and insta drop.

I agree and that is just the thing. The fact that you still get shit-talked on other plattforms makes one thing absolutely clear: "People on the internet want to shit-talk." It's just in our nature to strive to be superior to others and to let them know that we are and the anonymity of the internets provides excellent cover for this. I am not saying that is good or bad, it's just a fact of our human society. In the analog past it was the jocks in the high schools that picked on the nerds and used their football jackets to show their superior status or the rich driving expensive cars and honking at toyotas simply to show off. These things of course still happen today as well, but in the digital world it has become an even greater aspect. DPS meters and Achievements have replace the analog status symbols but the concept remains.

Thousands of years of human civilisation are build on this. People wanting to surpass each other is the engine behind hundreds of thousands of human inventions. Take as a wild example the space race in the 60s, it's core engine was Russia and the USA trying to surpass each other and be there first, which led to huge leaps in technology. Where do you think we would be as a civilisation if the USA and Russia had been afraid to offend each other and rather stayed on the ground then risk saying a mean word?

What I am saying is that this behaviour will not go away, it is just relegated to different channels to shield people from the ugly ugly reality of the world and that is simply not a good thing. The healthy and mature thing is taking the trash talk, checking if it is warranted and if it is, working on yourself to show the trash talker that you can be better and if it is not warranted then shrug and and go on.
Trying to cut yourself off from critizism will only leave you worse in the long run, because some of it might be correct. It might feel good to not have to deal with idiots and their talk, but in the end there is a larger benefit in making the effort of sorting through what is bullshit and what is not.

A person telling you: "Your healing sucks", can be the engine of your improvement, if you never hear that line and think everything is fine, you are standing still.

(And in case people think I am defending all kinds of bad behaviour, Disclaimer: I am not. Rascist, sexist, homophobic and other offensive talk should be regulated and it is not what I am talking about here)

[T-34]

The average player doesn't care about you and just wants to play the game.

Where did I say that the average players care about me or anybody else?
Bettering yourself is done in comparison to yourself, not anybody else, and no matter what your starting skill/ability is.

The poster I quoted assumed like the toxic elitist that he is that "average" players have no interest in becoming better.
Are you also a toxic elitist and assuming that "average" players don't find it fun to become better?

[Necromantic]

I agree and that is just the thing. The fact that you still get shit-talked on other plattforms makes one thing absolutely clear: "People on the internet want to shit-talk." It's just in our nature to strive to be superior to others and to let them know that we are and the anonymity of the internets provides excellent cover for this. I am not saying that is good or bad, it's just a fact of our human society. In the analog past it was the jocks in the high schools that picked on the nerds and used their football jackets to show their superior status or the rich driving expensive cars and honking at toyotas simply to show off. These things of course still happen today as well, but in the digital world it has become an even greater aspect. DPS meters and Achievements have replace the analog status symbols but the concept remains.

Thousands of years of human civilisation are build on this. People wanting to surpass each other is the engine behind hundreds of thousands of human inventions. Take as a wild example the space race in the 60s, it's core engine was Russia and the USA trying to surpass each other and be there first, which led to huge leaps in technology. Where do you think we would be as a civilisation if the USA and Russia had been afraid to offend each other and rather stayed on the ground then risk saying a mean word?

What I am saying is that this behaviour will not go away, it is just relegated to different channels to shield people from the ugly ugly reality of the world and that is simply not a good thing. The healthy and mature thing is taking the trash talk, checking if it is warranted and if it is, working on yourself to show the trash talker that you can be better and if it is not warranted then shrug and and go on.
Trying to cut yourself off from critizism will only leave you worse in the long run, because some of it might be correct. It might feel good to not have to deal with idiots and their talk, but in the end there is a larger benefit in making the effort of sorting through what is bullshit and what is not.

How true this is! So many people in the world feel it's necessary to try and show off fake superiority.

The side of this in gaming is hilarious, in my personal opinion. So many people trying to stroke their egos or show off things that nobody else cares about and using that as their justification to dismiss or condescend others. Gamers are soooo awkward about it too. But from my experience, they would rather be a fake somebody than a real nobody. I am not speaking for every gamer who succeeds at things but all of the gamers I know who "highly succeeded" in gaming live sad lives.

This is one reason I prefer this place over the official forums. People there will look hard into your armory for something to bring up so they do not have to answer your question and if they cannot find anything, they'll make something up.

A person telling you: "Your healing sucks", can be the engine of your improvement, if you never hear that line and think everything is fine, you are standing still.

(And in case people think I am defending all kinds of bad behaviour, Disclaimer: I am not. Rascist, sexist, homophobic and other offensive talk should be regulated and it is not what I am talking about here)

You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

Insulting a random person's performance isn't going to help them improve. It will simply make them 1) ignore you 2) report you 3) all the above. It is never necessary or justified to insult someone because of their performance. You can offer advice but don't shove it down their throat. I can confirm that console players often struggle because how cumbersome it is to respond to someone or explain why you have an issue. Replying on a controller sucks and many times, people will not even give you a chance to say something when they're "go go go!"

[ippollite]

I think you'll find that in a great many way the Prime Minister of the UK is a lot more powerful than the US President, even ignoring the lack of direct power over a lot of state matters that you mention. For one thing, the POTUS has no ability to enable spending that congress hasn't granted him (and can take away again), though he can refuse to spend money granted. The PM can, as long as he isn't rolled by his party, spend whatever the hell he wants. Also, the PM and his party only need simple majorities to do just about anything that the House of Lords doesn't have the power to cock-block (and that power is limited and can be over-ridden given time). The POTUS can't even appoint much of his government without senatorial approval, and thanks to its silly rules, often needs a large majority there for anything to pass.

The POTUS has far less direct power than the PM of the UK (let alone the PM of New Zealand, which has no upper house to rein in the ruling party).

A lot of those taxes were to pay for the defence of the colonies. Also, a fair bit of that defence was against enemies that the colonies had started the wars with. Which leads to another reason the colonies wanted freedom from the Empire - the British government wasn't nearly so keen on shooting native Americans and taking their land for settlement, and preferred more peaceful trading with them. The colonials wanted the land, preferably without annoying natives on it.

Isnt that because there was an agreement around 1949 that it wouldnt intervene in budget decisions passed by the house of comm...

This is a final fantasy discussion, dudes. Can you stop? or at least tie it into Eorzea in some way. Actually, would the restoration have been more or less effective with the reforms passed by very handsome caretaker Lord Protector oliver handsome japanese man (ive literally forgot his name). Is democracy an impediment to the Ishgardian Feudal society? Were they too fast and too idealistic in their reformation? Is Hilda coming for you? Do trying wild dragons require a 'war despot' leader or is ishgard better served with a reformist ready to bring the people together and fight for a common cause!

[dlld]

Where did I say that the average players care about me or anybody else?
Bettering yourself is done in comparison to yourself, not anybody else, and no matter what your starting skill/ability is.

The poster I quoted assumed like the toxic elitist that he is that "average" players have no interest in becoming better.
Are you also a toxic elitist and assuming that "average" players don't find it fun to become better?

Everyone wants to be better the difference is the vast majority of people aren't going to put any serious effort into such for a game.

[Mars_Trueskills]

The combat is not very responsive in compared to WoW.
It feels delayed, sort of rubber-bandy.

[Tenjen]

On another note what really annoys me about FF lately is how everyone pushes it in our faces because WoW had a late patch for once. Have you seen Bellulars latest videos? Godssake. He is treating that game like it is the second coming of Christ in MMO form and after making money off WoW for years he now can't wait to shit on every aspect of it. He was always a pathetic drama-monger, but since he picked up that game he is downright insufferable. Sadly all the haters still flock to him like his word is gospel. I wonder what Square is paying him for this drivel.

Not really an FF thing. that sort of thing is prevalant amongst populalist content creators. Whatever draws in the most metrics. He's done the same thing in the past.

I mentioned it before but it probably got lost in the off rails discussion. the UI definately needs to be more intuitive for all the menus, inventory and systems. Theres a lot of content creep with systems over systems that new people have trouble keeping up with.

[GoKs]

I downloaded the game, but didnt buy it yet, will play a bit first too see if it is something I would like. I think their way of doing the whole trail thing is awesome.
@Raisei why do you care what other people do, its your life man, live it the way you want. If Bellular likes the game that much, and people follow him there, then good on him, I had this same discussion regarding Asmongold... it is really simple, if you dont like them, or what they do then just ignore them. It is their bread and butter to make vids, and if it works for them, then good for them.

[Echo of Soul]

On another note what really annoys me about FF lately is how everyone pushes it in our faces because WoW had a late patch for once. Have you seen Bellulars latest videos? Godssake. He is treating that game like it is the second coming of Christ in MMO form and after making money off WoW for years he now can't wait to shit on every aspect of it. He was always a pathetic drama-monger, but since he picked up that game he is downright insufferable. Sadly all the haters still flock to him like his word is gospel. I wonder what Square is paying him for this drivel.

That's probably just because you're heavily invested in WoW. If you ask someone who's invested in FFXIV or is neutral they probably dont think that he's insufferable.

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The combat is not very responsive in compared to WoW.
It feels delayed, sort of rubber-bandy.

One big part of that is the animations. If you look at the combat log you'll see that the damage actually goes out as soon as you press the button but then there's a potentially long animation associated with the ability that makes it seem like it's delayed.

[Necromantic]

One big part of that is the animations. If you look at the combat log you'll see that the damage actually goes out as soon as you press the button but then there's a potentially long animation associated with the ability that makes it seem like it's delayed.

Some fast combat animations just look weird.

I was watching the video recently of Diablo 2 Resurrected.... druid shape shift attacking fast looked so goofy.

[T-34]

Here's the thing: When most people think of "bettering themselves", they think about actual, real-life things. Education, skills, relationships with family and friends.

They're not focused on a video game. They'll do exactly as much as they feel like doing, and nothing more. No appeals to a sense of "bettering yourself" are going to work on them, because to them it's just a silly video game that they blow off some steam in, or use to escape for a while. It's not their life.

I am perfectly aware that some people don't find it fun to become better at their hobby.
I am also perfectly aware that some people are so selfish and entitled that they don't want to do their best when that hobby entails other people and thereby waste other people's time.
I am also perfectly aware that FFXIV is specifically designed to cater to such people.

What I was commenting on wasn't that fact. I was commenting on a bigoted and prejudiced statement that people of "average" skill don't want to become better.

[Necromantic]

I think most anyone wants to get better but not to the same degrees. Some people get to a point where their improvement slows to a creep because they're in a comfort zone.

[Necromantic]

Well, like I said, to many people video games are just video games. They're happy to just log in, do story, get some glamour pieces, hit the occasional daily roulette or something, and they don't need to pursue some self-improvement or something.

Because it's just a game to them. If they want to "better themselves", they'll go read a book, or study for a class, or brush up on the latest information in their career field, or go exercise. Not stress over how some DRG is mad that they didn't line up Trick Attack quite right on that trial roulette that died in 48.1 seconds anyway.

Not saying you're wrong. It's true... so many are so obsessive. Nin didn't line up a Trick Attack, healer wasn't comfortable doing DPS or tank missed his CD. To some, this is serious business. Some even go as far as to assume that if you're not trying to perform at maximum performance, you're trolling.

[Echo of Soul]

Some even go as far as to assume that if you're not trying to perform at maximum performance, you're trolling.

Delusions, narcissism or something in that general area needs to be at play. If you want to play a video game like it's life or death go ahead but if you demand that everyone else does too then there's something wrong with you. If you then proceed to spew toxicity in the chat you deserve whatever punishment you get.
Don't be a dick, it's really not that hard.

[Aliven]

I am perfectly aware that some people don't find it fun to become better at their hobby.
I am also perfectly aware that some people are so selfish and entitled that they don't want to do their best when that hobby entails other people and thereby waste other people's time.
I am also perfectly aware that FFXIV is specifically designed to cater to such people.

What I was commenting on wasn't that fact. I was commenting on a bigoted and prejudiced statement that people of "average" skill don't want to become better.

Soooo are you playing FF14?

[Raisei]

Delusions, narcissism or something in that general area needs to be at play. If you want to play a video game like it's life or death go ahead but if you demand that everyone else does too then there's something wrong with you. If you then proceed to spew toxicity in the chat you deserve whatever punishment you get.
Don't be a dick, it's really not that hard.

If you bring this kind of attittude to any hobby that entails a group of people, let's say football or soccer, then your teammates will give you just as much grief if you are not applying yourself. Nobody likes their time being wasted because someone doesn't feel like they have to contribute. Then you either change your attitude or you are suspiciously always the last person picked when the teams get made.

The only difference is that in this hobby you can pretend like the people you play with aren't "real" because they are not physically with you. It's not life and death, no, but it is real people's time that you are deliberately wasting because you don't feel like you have to do your best. So I think it is debateable who is the dick in such a situation.

It's fine if you don't wanna learn and improve yourself, but don't expect other people to accept that they have to work twice as hard because you are not carrying your own weight. It's really not that hard.

[Saltysquidoon]

That's probably just because you're heavily invested in WoW. If you ask someone who's invested in FFXIV or is neutral they probably dont think that he's insufferable.

In that guy's defence Belluar has always been insufferable.

It's hardly "selfish and entitled" to not play like a Method raider in your leveling roulette.
...
Because it's just a game to them. If they want to "better themselves", they'll go read a book, or study for a class, or brush up on the latest information in their career field, or go exercise. Not stress over how some DRG is mad that they didn't line up Trick Attack quite right on that trial roulette that died in 48.1 seconds anyway.

Here's why this discussion never works, you guys are talking past each other with extreme hypotheticals. Sure someone delaying a run half a minute by not being 100% optimal in a shitty 5man isn't the end of the world and anyone who pretends otherwise is an irrational asshole.
On the other hand is pointing out that a paladin using literally one ability, not maintaining threat and repeatedly wiping the raid is wasting 4 other people's time assholish?.

To apply the analogy of the poster above me, there's a difference between someone yelling at you for being unskilled at bowling in a weekend league and someone yelling at you for trying to hit a football down the lane with a cricket bat, instead of bowling.

[TheRevenantHero]

In that guy's defence Belluar has always been insufferable.


Here's why this discussion never works, you guys are talking past each other with extreme hypotheticals. Sure someone delaying a run half a minute by not being 100% optimal in a shitty 5man isn't the end of the world and anyone who pretends otherwise is an irrational asshole.
On the other hand is pointing out that a paladin using literally one ability, not maintaining threat and repeatedly wiping the raid is wasting 4 other people's time assholish?.

To apply the analogy of the poster above me, there's a difference between someone yelling at you for being unskilled at bowling in a weekend league and someone yelling at you for trying to hit a football down the lane with a cricket bat, instead of bowling.

You can tell someone they are wasting people's time without being a dick about it, honestly. It's all about phrasing. But a lot of people in this thread are used to WoW standards where it's practically encouraged for you to be toxic to people if you don't like how they're playing the game.

[Echo of Soul]

If you bring this kind of attittude to any hobby that entails a group of people, let's say football or soccer, then your teammates will give you just as much grief if you are not applying yourself. Nobody likes their time being wasted because someone doesn't feel like they have to contribute. Then you either change your attitude or you are suspiciously always the last person picked when the teams get made.

The only difference is that in this hobby you can pretend like the people you play with aren't "real" because they are not physically with you. It's not life and death, no, but it is real people's time that you are deliberately wasting because you don't feel like you have to do your best. So I think it is debateable who is the dick in such a situation.

It's fine if you don't wanna learn and improve yourself, but don't expect other people to accept that they have to work twice as hard because you are not carrying your own weight. It's really not that hard.

Football and soccer are competitive sports. The whole point is to perform better than your opponents. Everyone who opt in to such activities are generally on the same page. Hardly comparable to a video game that you play to relax. You don't watch movies competitively do you?