Have We Become Overly Critical?

[NineSpine]

Again, you are now concluding that I am mad, somehow You are presenting "facts" but don't actually provide any statistics and still are talking about what should have been done for current patch. You are the one who this topic is about. Stretching and twisting opinions, not listening at all on what has been said just so you can "validate" your arguments.
Yes, patch is late. There are obvious reasons for that which are mostly affecting whole world, but you keep ignoring that and use the patch being late/largely not presented as a support for I don't even know what your argument is. It just feels that you have nothing better to support it with. If retail becomes worse than classic, people will move over and that is it. We are yet to see that happening.

Which fact needs statistics to back it up?

Classic is for a largely different audience than retail, so people aren’t going to “move over”. If you like the design of retail, you probably don’t want to play an MMO and classic is very much an MMO.

[Kelduril]

Small brain takes here dude.

Of course it's a small brain take when you attack the strawman. But I'm sure in your mind that's some sort of great victory.

- - - Updated - - -

How large of instance sizes did the first MMOs, which coined the term, have? The answer is 0, because instances didn’t exist back then. The massive refers to the persistent open world, not instance size.

Cool. Now can you show me where I said instance size makes a game an MMO?

[NineSpine]

Dude, why do you have this inferiority complex then? You are coming here to shit on retail with your false "facts" and assumptions is equivalent of WoW players who go into FF video comments to shit on that game they don't even play because they have better alternative. It only displays underlying mental problems.

This isn’t the retail safe space forum. It’s the general discussion forum. As a classic player, I’m just as much entitled to be here as you are.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it's a small brain take when you attack the strawman. But I'm sure in your mind that's some sort of great victory.

- - - Updated - - -



Cool. Now can you show me where I said instance size makes a game an MMO?

I said wow was barely an MMO and you countered with saying that FF14 only had 8 player dungeons.

[Elkfingers]

Of course it's a small brain take when you attack the strawman. But I'm sure in your mind that's some sort of great victory.

Lmao what strawman? You don't understand how words work, and I pointed it out. Now we're learning that you don't understand informal fallacies either.

Just a lot of projection here tbh. You don't want to be wrong (which you demonstrably are), so now you're using the names of fallacies which don't apply like they're magic words which make you right. Sad.

[Kelduril]

Lmao what strawman?
Just a lot of projection here tbh. You don't want to be wrong (which you demonstrably are), so now you're using the names of fallacies which don't apply like they're magic words which make you right. Sad.

You're attacking a statement I never made. Not once have I said FF's raid size doesn't make it an MMO. I just mocked its endgame, graphics and gameplay.

You don't understand how words work

That's hilarious considering you aren't even reading mine and are just imagining whatever suits your narrative.

[NineSpine]

You're attacking a statement I never made. Not once have I said FF's raid size doesn't make it an MMO. I just mocked its endgame, graphics and gameplay.

Just admit you had a bad take and want to walk it back. You aren't fooling anyone. You responded to a point saying wow was barely an MMO by mocking FF14s instance sizes, which you weren't even right about.

[Elkfingers]

You're attacking a statement I never made. Not once have I said FF's raid size doesn't make it an MMO. I just mocked its endgame, graphics and gameplay.

Ok so why bring up etymology of the M in MMO? What was your point there if you weren't trying to imply that instance size has something to do with whether something is or is not an MMO?

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. I assume you had some reason to bring that up, but I'm struggling to work out what that reason could possibly be.

That's hilarious considering you aren't even reading mine and are just imagining whatever suits your narrative.

I don't have any skin in the game. You're not a clear communicator, and now I'm asking you what possible reason you had to write the words you did lol.

[NineSpine]

Ok so why bring up etymology of the M in MMO? What was your point there if you weren't trying to imply that instance size has something to do with whether something is or is not an MMO?

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. I assume you had some reason to bring that up, but I'm struggling to work out what that reason could possibly be.

Oh my god, he went back and edited his comment to make it look like he said something different. He doesn't realize we can see edits.

[erifwodahs]

This isn’t the retail safe space forum. It’s the general discussion forum. As a classic player, I’m just as much entitled to be here as you are.

You are indeed. It just is alarming, well at least it would be for me.

Which fact needs statistics to back it up?

Amount of servers released and what population indicator it had, amount of servers added and updated population indicators and then finally current amount of servers and current population indicators. Also we need a number to each population indicator otherwise we don't have a good reference unless you point out what is considered a healthy wow server currently, but that would have to come from a bunch of players who are representing game from different perspectives. There is no denial that classic is a success, but promoting it as second coming of Jesus and best thing since sliced bread might be a stretch unless you have the FACTS.

And whatever you said about Retail not being MMO. Well, again stretching and twisting definitions as you see fit. Retail is very much an MMO, RPG elements have been reduced to create more fluid and accessible video game for modern era of gamers and as a classic player you can't hide from that either, looking at world buff meta, leveling metas and boosts, class metas and competitive game play where people are competing in speed.

[Elkfingers]

Oh my god, he went back and edited his comment to make it look like he said something different. He doesn't realize we can see edits.

Oh man, imagine being this committed to never changing your mind aaa

[Masternap]

Yes. People expect way too much these days. Imagine if any of the patches from the "golden era" of WoW came out today. In contrast to today's patches there's almost no content in them. Maybe one raid, a few new quests, and that's it.

Now we're getting a new raid, a new mega-dungeon, a completely new zone, new wing for Torghast, quite a lot of Covenant content, and probably a few new questlines in a single patch. And that's STILL not enough. It's honestly impossible for Blizzard to do anything right at this point.

[Kelduril]

You responded to a point saying wow was barely an MMO by mocking FF14s instance sizes, which you weren't even right about.

You know what? No. I'm right. How many players are involved in content is definitely relevant in an MMO. It's part of why BDO is dogshit, because it's a solo game for 99% of it.

And at a glance

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Raids

the best item lvl rewards come from an 8 man instance. Sure, 24 man content may exist, but the 8 man one gives the best gear.

And that's laughable.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh my god, he went back and edited his comment to make it look like he said something different. He doesn't realize we can see edits.

No, I didn't. Though I suppose a serial strawman is bound to lie as well.

[Elkfingers]

No, I didn't. Though I surprise a serial strawman is bound to lie as well.

Mate. I'm begging you to read a fucking book before you use terms you don't properly understand.

Also you did edit it. I even quoted that specific post. It says edited at the bottom, with a timestamp. This is 0/10 damage control.

[Kelduril]

Mate. I'm begging you to read a fucking book before you use terms you don't properly understand.

Also you did edit it. I even quoted that specific post. It says edited at the bottom, with a timestamp. This is 0/10 damage control.

I don't need any damage control. FF14 is an ''MMO'' where the best gear is obtained from 8 man content. That's a joke.

[NineSpine]

You know what? No. I'm right. How many players are involved in content is definitely relevant in an MMO. It's part of why BDO is dogshit, because it's a solo game for 99% of it.

And at a glance

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Raids

the best item lvl rewards come from an 8 man instance

- - - Updated - - -



No, I didn't. Though I surprise a serial strawman is bound to lie as well.

We can see the edit stamp on it. This is so sad.

"How many players are involved in content" is not the same question as "What content drops the best gear".

You are inadvertently proving everything I said. WoW has deluded you into thinking that MMOs are about instances and gear, nothing else. It's the only lens you can even conceive of the genre through because that is what WoW is all about. It's like a cow surgeon talking about surgery in general and insisting that you always need to consider the four stomachs.

Instances DIDN'T EVEN EXIST when the first MMOs came out and the term was coined. Insisting that instance size is how we define MMO is irrational. Non-MMO games have instances and group sizes. Some MMOs have NO INSTANCES. This is irrelavent.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't need any damage control. FF14 is an ''MMO'' where the best gear is obtained from 8 man content. That's a joke.

I can get max ilvl gear in WoW doing M+. I can get max level gear in WoW doing 2v2 arenas. That's 5 and 4 player instanced content.

[Edward Wu]

The game is soulless shit and people are grasping for straws to try and explain it away.

This community is a mess.

[Kelduril]

We can see the edit stamp on it. This is so sad.

Because I corrected the spelling of 1 word lmao

Show us what I wrote and what I edited in if that's true.

"How many players are involved in content" is not the same question as "What content drops the best gear".

???

WoW has deluded you into thinking that MMOs are about instances and gear, nothing else

Deluded? RPGs are by definition about improving your character. You do that with gear in pretty much every RPG, among other things.

So yes, it is about that.

Instances DIDN'T EVEN EXIST when the first MMOs came out

And? Who cares?

The first MMO came out 20+ years ago. Why is this relevant?

There's a reason WoW has had more players than FF, ESO and GW combined.

This is irrelavent.

What makes something a good game in the eyes of someone else is not up to you to decide.

- - - Updated - - -

I can get max ilvl gear in WoW doing M+. I can get max level gear in WoW doing 2v2 arenas. That's 5 and 4 player instanced content.

No you can't. M+ won't give you 233 gear.

I can get max level gear in WoW doing 2v2 arenas

Someone could, yes. You, I doubt.

[Baconeggcheese]

What do you suppose prevents some players from just being excited to still have new content and millions of other players?

Experience.

I don't know that any of this is unique to wow, people have been gaming for years and while wow has been running for a significant number of them the community as a whole has continued to "mature" in the amount of experience and expectations they have.

Covenants are a great example, right at the very moment they were announced the community could already see all the issues that were going to come with them. An entire community could instantly identify the issues with a system at a fundamental level with some general information. (inb4 people who don't realize that what was announced and originally implemented is very very different than what went live, and even then live still has its same issues).

I don't think that would've been a thing back in the vanilla / bc days. I think we'd see this shiny new system and be like "ah cool, aldor and scryer I'm totally going team red!" and that's about it.

None of this is peoples first rodeo anymore, so they aren't excited for simple things. They have a ton of experience with all of this under their belt and a solid idea of what they like and dislike, hence them being very critical when they know something they dislike is on the horizon.

[Elkfingers]

I don't need any damage control. FF14 is an ''MMO'' where the best gear is obtained from 8 man content. That's a joke.

So just to be clear, you're now saying that instance size does have something to do with whether something is or isn't an MMO?

Just want to be sure, because earlier you said you weren't saying anything of the sort, and even edited your own post to make it seem like that's what you were saying all along.

Do you even know what your own point is, or do you just say whatever you think makes you look right in the moment?

[Kelduril]

Do you even know what your own point is, or do you just say whatever you think makes you look right in the moment?

I've been stating it pretty clearly. FF14 and SWTOR may have stories its players enjoy ( supposedly, to me FF14 looks like anime trash ) but everything else is terrible.