Will the 9th expansion finally be fresh and not Legon 3.0?

[NineSpine]

Well, WoW is without a doubt an MMO, with thousands of players sharing a single persistent realm. So what you actually want must be something different.

Except it *isn't* a single persistent realm. It's a mass of interconnected servers hosting thousands of concurrent instances of zones, none of which are discreet.

Even putting that aside, my point was that "Ignore all the non-instanced content" is a pretty poor argument for the quality of a game that exists in a genre where the persistent world, not the instances, is the defining factor. It's like saying that going to see a baseball game is fun if you ignore the game and focus on the snacks and hanging out in the stands. That may very well be true for some people, but what does it say about the sport if that's the best its defenders can come up with?

[rhorle]

Even putting that aside, my point was that "Ignore all the non-instanced content" is a pretty poor argument for the quality of a game that exists in a genre where the persistent world, not the instances, is the defining factor. It's like saying that going to see a baseball game is fun if you ignore the game and focus on the snacks and hanging out in the stands. That may very well be true for some people, but what does it say about the sport if that's the best its defenders can come up with?

Why is it a bad thing though that an MMO, or any game, to have optional content? It has nothing to do with the genre that you find that optional content to be bad and rarely is the content objectively bad.

[NineSpine]

Why is it a bad thing though that an MMO, or any game, to have optional content? It has nothing to do with the genre that you find that optional content to be bad and rarely is the content objectively bad.

Because all content is optional content. The game is optional.

What you are calling "optional content" is more properly described as "poorly designed content that Blizzard thinks they can get away with by making the reward for doing it trivial". That's the problem. The vast majority of the content in the game that is not inside an instance is absolutely awful, and Blizzard tries to ask us to excuse this by making that content so unrewarding that you can brush off complaints about it.

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rehash this. bfa was not legion even though it really wanted to be.

as i just put in the SL popularity thread, I don't find SL nearly as "i'm legion in a different skin" as I did BFA, but there are a couple of things they're sticking with that have legion vibes. that said, I do think legion was a permanent turning point for wow's endgame, but it's also unfair to call things that use its ideas "legion clones" going forward. for example, legion introduced m+, world quests, and the idea that wow endgame was not just gearing for player power-3 essential rpg ideas that hadn't been iterated on in wow to this point. challenge modes didn't contribute to player power, and neither did mop dailies, even if they were attempts at making that content relevant. like, WQ's will almost certainly be a wow staple for the rest of the game's life, that doesn't mean every expansion is a legion copy. WQ's were a great idea many years in the making that fundamentally changed how you play wow endgame, and they happened to be in the legion box.

the things that ARE legion derivative and can change are things like covenant sanctums, which are far from class halls, the mission table being relevant (it should just die), and the general format that the engagement with the world takes. look at the leveling even: legion's leveling was the first plot structure of "there is this big bad thing. we need to assemble stuff in an island hopping strike mission format to tackle it." then bfa copied it: "there's this war. cant fight the war until you island hop and secure support from these zones." SL did it again: "jailer bad. need 4 covenants with more stronk to fight him." the issue with that model is that your base world feels stagnant in .1, then gets totally blown away by your .2 content and beyond. one of the ONLY enjoyable parts of bfa was how good the 8.2 outdoor content was, with nazjatar being one of my fave endgame outdoor zones. so idk, i hope 10.0 breaks legion's model of .1 being an iteration on launch continents by them getting assaults popping up. make it bigger and bolder than that. all that said, i am still super excited for 9.1. looks really cool.

M+ and WQs are iterations on previously existing systems though. M+ was an evolution of challenge modes and WQS were an iteration on dailies. These designs, like all others, have been stagnant since Legion.

[Kithelle]

Depends on your definition...we aren't hunting demons and their Elf friends...so I don't see SL as Legion 2.0

[Simple Rick]

Because all content is optional content. The game is optional.

What you are calling "optional content" is more properly described as "poorly designed content that Blizzard thinks they can get away with by making the reward for doing it trivial". That's the problem. The vast majority of the content in the game that is not inside an instance is absolutely awful, and Blizzard tries to ask us to excuse this by making that content so unrewarding that you can brush off complaints about it.

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M+ and WQs are iterations on previously existing systems though. M+ was an evolution of challenge modes and WQS were an iteration on dailies. These designs, like all others, have been stagnant since Legion.

I don't really mind these designs but I do wish blizzard would stop over rewarded experimental content with rewards "needed" for mythic progression. Mage tower was a roaring success with out power rewards... I don't see why torghast or dailies still need to be a thing that has currency that can only be collected from that content.

[NineSpine]

I don't really mind these designs but I do wish blizzard would stop over rewarded experimental content with rewards "needed" for mythic progression. Mage tower was a roaring success with out power rewards... I don't see why torghast or dailies still need to be a thing that has currency that can only be collected from that content.

Interdependence of features is a good thing, within certain limits.

[Stormspark]

No, if anything it will be even more lazy. Legion was the end IMO, and the last time they actually tried...everything since then has been lazy reskins/cash grabs.

[ntlntl]

I quite like the current systems. Most things are optional and skippable. My character power feels at 98% without doing most of the content.

Togh is optional as long as you had enough soul ash.
WQs are optional. Anima is for cosmetics after a certain point, largely skippable.

I love to PVP, and do 1-2 dungeons a week then off. It's enjoyable without all the mandated daily/weekly farming BFA had.

[rhorle]

Because all content is optional content. The game is optional. What you are calling "optional content" is more properly described as "poorly designed content that Blizzard thinks they can get away with by making the reward for doing it trivial". That's the problem. The vast majority of the content in the game that is not inside an instance is absolutely awful, and Blizzard tries to ask us to excuse this by making that content so unrewarding that you can brush off complaints about it.

The problem here is you are using "poorly designed" for anything that you do not like. Instead of using it to describe actual poorly designed content. If you find the vast majority of the content in the game to be awful then it is more an issue with what you enjoy then with game design. The game is no longer for you. That is perfectly fine but lets call it what it is.

The vast majority of content in the game is not unrewarding or have trival rewards. Which again highlights the problem with your usage. You can't seperate "I don't like this or want to do this" with "This is bad design". There is nothing wrong with having optional content. It is actually a terribly designed game that forces a player to do something they like when there is no need to force it.

[NineSpine]

The problem here is you are using "poorly designed" for anything that you do not like. Instead of using it to describe actual poorly designed content. If you find the vast majority of the content in the game to be awful then it is more an issue with what you enjoy then with game design. The game is no longer for you. That is perfectly fine but lets call it what it is.

The vast majority of content in the game is not unrewarding or have trival rewards. Which again highlights the problem with your usage. You can't seperate "I don't like this or want to do this" with "This is bad design". There is nothing wrong with having optional content. It is actually a terribly designed game that forces a player to do something they like when there is no need to force it.

The entire game is optional, so this "optional content" thing is nonsense.

The rest of your post is just assuming I must not have good reasons for my opinions, rather than just... asking me to state my reasons.

[bigfun]

What's Blizzard's sick form of torture of being so anti getting around the game world quickly?

- Shadowlands flight paths are the worst, always needing to fly to Oribos to get to another SL zone. Really Blizz, you think that's fun and cool?

- And easy on the load screens already. Holy cow it's load screen city in this game lately. And I have a fast gaming rig with 64GB DDR4 with a solid state drive and newest Intel CPU. And I'm sick of the load screens just kills the immersion MMO factor.

- No flight whistle? And why is that?

- Most classes have some form of quick fast walking or floating or whatnot on a cool down. But it's a sick joke, like DK's get Wraith Walk move fast for what several seconds, then wait on the long cool down. It's like Blizzard lives to tease us, ok you can move quickly, but only for a very short time, then back to crawling slow movement.

- The Maw. Who at Blizz thought a whole zone with virtually no mounting wouid be fun? Yeah you can grab that one mount in there, but still. It's basically no riding in The Maw just slow walking. How is that fun?

- Legacy old content, let us frigging mount up in old Raids abd Dungeons, or at least make the cool downs much shorter or last longer for our classes Wraith Walk type spells.

I whole heartedly agree with this, i extremely dislike SL for my own reasons but the flight paths through "in between" is a joke, why not do like legion in argus and just use teleporters... The maw is the worse thing ever, altho im a druid and well loldeer... When we get out of SL are we going back to after lvl 120 or we going to be lvl 70... And why why cant for people who cant get the spine of deathwing down, why cant they just skip that part OR make it easier (dont roast me, u wont win)... SL has just begun but my complaints are valid

[rhorle]

The entire game is optional, so this "optional content" thing is nonsense. The rest of your post is just assuming I must not have good reasons for my opinions, rather than just... asking me to state my reasons.

I already know you don't have any good reasons because you keep using stupid generalized statements to refer to the game. You earlier referred to 2/3rds of the game being bad optional content instead of just bad content. So you even acknowledge that there is a difference between optional and non-optional content. It all comes back to your subjective opinion on bad content.

You can do more then just raid or mythic+ log. You choose not to because you don't find the content compelling. Which is fine. But your personal taste doesn't mean content is objectively bad. It just means the game is no longer the type you enjoy.

[NineSpine]

I already know you don't have any good reasons because you keep using stupid generalized statements to refer to the game. You earlier referred to 2/3rds of the game being bad optional content instead of just bad content. So you even acknowledge that there is a difference between optional and non-optional content. It all comes back to your subjective opinion on bad content.

You can do more then just raid or mythic+ log. You choose not to because you don't find the content compelling. Which is fine. But your personal taste doesn't mean content is objectively bad. It just means the game is no longer the type you enjoy.

You've so poorly and hamfistedly tried to pick a fight with me that you made silly assumptions. I don't like raiding. I don't like M+. Argue with me, not whoever you rehearse these things with in your head.

[ntlntl]

Can we please not argue technically. Let's look at the context, please. Using that logic, everything in life is optional: Money, insurance, car, jobs, car... Some are optional, some are important and not really "optional".

In terms of player power and progression, gear and gold and any power-enhancement systems are important. As long as a system doesn't improve character power significantly, it's deemed 'optional'.

[rhorle]

You've so poorly and hamfistedly tried to pick a fight with me that you made silly assumptions. I don't like raiding. I don't like M+. Argue with me, not whoever you rehearse these things with in your head.

I didn't make any silly assumptions. I never said you like raiding. I never said you like mythic+. I used your earlier post as a reference when you implied there is nothing else to do in the game but those activities.That you want to play an MMO. And yet there is plenty of things to do in the game outside of raids and dungeons. The problem here is you don't personally find those other things compelling.

Which again relates back to what I've been saying all along. Game design can not account for a player calling something bad when the design itself is not at fault.

This is what I don’t get: People arguing “you don’t have to do the bad content/systems” like that fixes the problem. If two thirds of the game is bad optional content, that’s really terrible design. I don’t want to raid log, or run 500 M+ a week, or just do arena. That’s boring to me. I want to play an MMO.

[NineSpine]

I didn't make any silly assumptions. I never said you like raiding. I never said you like mythic+. I used your earlier post as a reference when you implied there is nothing else to do in the game but those activities.That you want to play an MMO. And yet there is plenty of things to do in the game outside of raids and dungeons. The problem here is you don't personally find those other things compelling.

Which again relates back to what I've been saying all along. Game design can not account for a player calling something bad when the design itself is not at fault.

"plenty to do" but almost all of it is bad.3

[rhorle]

"plenty to do" but almost all of it is bad.3

Right. You've established you don't enjoy most of the game. That is a sign to move on and not that it is a bad design.

[NineSpine]

Right. You've established you don't enjoy most of the game. That is a sign to move on and not that it is a bad design.

The fact that I have not elaborated on why it is bad design doesn't mean I can't elaborate and provide more details. This is like if I said "Oh this sandwich is disgusting" and you say "Oh ha ha! Sir, you have merely established that you do not like the sandwich, not that it is ACKTUALLY disgusting! I have felled you with my logic, sir!" and then I say "But there is a dead mouse in the sandwich, so it is disgusting."

There's reasons the design is bad. A lot of them. I can explain, or you can keep pretending that I am irrational and have no reasons for disliking things.

[rhorle]

There's reasons the design is bad. A lot of them. I can explain, or you can keep pretending that I am irrational and have no reasons for disliking things.

You keep saying you can but have yet to do so. Majority of the game is not objectively bad design. I don't need to pretend that you are irrational because you keep saying you can explain. But choose not to in an effort to insult and demean. Weird right?

[kaminaris]

Don't believe a second what Kaminaris is telling you. He is notoriously claiming raiding at top levels of mythic, while getting CE's a week before they remove it for more than half the raids the last 2 expansions. He is a guild jumper who most likely get in as a social then even get to buy(got proof) or get a last spot just before they remove Cutting Edge for each raid up to Nya'lotha.

For nya'lotha(the easiest mythic end boss in the game) "his" mythic guild couldn't kill Nzoth. So what he did? He jumped ship, joined another that had it on farm. He got his first kill in June 2020, 2 months after they killed it. When did he join them? 1 day after they killed Nzoth the first time. Just an example of what he is lying about.

You know what he doesn't like with SL? He can't farm himself to power. It's so limited, thus his performance is tied to skill this time around, and not deemed worthy. He got no mythic kills in CN.

Listen dude, you have been lying the whole time and telling some bullshit stories.

I have 10 cutting edges where 9 of them were done with guilds i played with, one with friends after free CE AP boots with their alts and 2 not as first kills. So can you shut up with your lies and bs? Guild felt apart before nzoth, they never killed it. And only once I actually left guild that didn't disband soon after.


What did you achieve? Nothing. You were completely defeated in artifact calculation thread that showed you can't even use simcraft properly.
So it looks like you are just one of those who buy boosts and think they know everything.

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I mean its rather questionable given the way he responds to the situation...

I am not overly invested in if he does or doesn't I would just like a WoD level of grinding needed to "complete" a toon myself. If SL launched with all relics being 226 ilv by default and the leggo only needing one full clear of torghast i would be sitting happy.

As it stands I just don't care for the busy work and thinking about doing it twice has kept me from rolling an alt.

Its not questionable, I was mythic raider since MoP, Addon developer. I know math unlike people like Doffen who can't even use simcraft:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ed-to-the-game

He is straight up liar.
Now the sims:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52539773
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52074522