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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    The night elves are refugees because Anduin did not send any help to aid Teldrassil against the Horde onslaught, neither did the space goats living next door. They just let the enemy prevail. We will never know why.
    Why? Because the fleet was too far away, that is why. There really is no mystery there. Anduin desperatedly tried to get people there, but couldn't. Sylvanas tricked them all and by the time the ruse was revealed it was too late.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    So I guess even both factions get screwed logically wise and this whole ordeal is just a fallacy of writer's just writing whatever the fuck they want instead of being consistent and truthful to the source, but who gives a SHIT when you can just write that everything's happy with eachother in this perfect world of Azeroth and you can just go back and retcon and change things to your liking because you're too uncreative to come up with anything new so your only solution is to change things that happened before your time because you think you somehow come off as creative in doing so but instead you just disrespect the whole franchise with your gibberish and bias towards your favorite characters.
    Welcome to comic books. WoW is a comic book.

    Why is WoW a comic book and not a deep literary epic that follows closely with realized military-based politics? Because comic books exist to thinly create absurd scenarios that justify pitting your action figures of *Cool Looking Colorful Hero A* against *Menacing Bad Guy Boss of the Last Bad Guy* IN SPACE! Sometimes they really shake things up with "Hero is suddenly a bad guy for this summer event!" WoW has the same goal: Put your character in interesting locations to beat up wild and crazy enemies. If one of the characters is sad about something or wants to talk about their feelings, the WoW people go "Hey Christie, can you put this in a book? We don't want it to bog down the game. Thanks!"

    And yes, it'll get retconned a year or two later, just like... ta-da! *Comic Books!* Because while that thing we did a while back was fun and all, we want to do this totally different fun thing now. Captain America and Iron Man are enemies now, despite 40 years of them being completely fine with each other's antics. Jaina was a very nice lady, but then she got really not nice, but she had a nightmare and is nice again... maybe - all of which happened to take you the player to certain places and have certain things happen.

    Oh and pro-tip: this has been the reality of Warcraft since Day 1. Warcraft 2 retconned Warcraft 1 in a bunch of ways. Warcraft 3 retconned WC1&2. WoW Vanilla played incredibly fast and loose with all of the events of the RTS games. And so the cycle continues.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    He also willingly throws away lives of a "suicide army" and "lets the trolls grieve" while not pushing Alliance advantage on Zandalar and generally seemingly wants peace no matter how many lives will be lost BECAUSE of it. Yes, his pacifism kills as many as Sylvanas warmongering.
    From a perspective of a Horde player, well, Anduin played that pretty well.

    You noticed how after Zuldazar, which was a huge campaign that resulted in death of major Horde allied leader, Anduin stopped pushing his advantage. At the same time, the Horde started eating itself from within. Sylvanas campaign lost momentum, she had to be dealing with inside interference of Baine, Thrall and Saurfang after that.

    If Anduin utilized this moment to "push his advantage", he would remain the aggressor. Keep pushing for Zuldazar, perhaps other Horde territories? This would only serve to reunite them, since at this point no matter how many of the leaders distrusted Sylvanas, they would have to defend their lands. The war would go on, and with reunited Horde it would probably go on for some time. Result - way more Alliance casualities, and most likely little to nothing achieved. Armies of the Horde would defend Zuldazar (Siege was an unexpected sneak attack, which is why it succeeded), and any other Horde settlement. Back to Cataclysm scenario with 2 factions bleeding each other out.

    Thanks to Anduins strategy of helping the Horde dismantle itself (by cooperating with Saurfang and Thrall Gang) his casualities were reduced to minimum, and Horde defeated the Horde. Both Warfronts were victories, and Warchief position was compromised to the point that it was turned into a council. Council which contained Baine (Alliance supporter who resided in Stormwind for the longest time) and Thrall, who always advocated for cooperation with the Alliance as well. His influence also allowed him to introduce characters like Calia Menethil to the Forsaken, which might in turn add another Alliance-related leader to the bunch.

    As far as I see it, Alliance won this war, holding significant leverage over the Horde, which became destabilized and lost a lot of its power due to internal struggle. Way better outcome for him than continued war against an enemy that, when united, managed to conquer Darkshore in a matter of days and burn a large tree.

  4. #84
    Bias is pretty heavy in this thread, its sad to see, I like the Alliance and every expansion I like it more, doI like teleaders? no they are geenrally not to my taste but thats just ebcause you see the surface interactions of their choices and blizzard just sucks ass with explaining their own story in game, that cannot be argued against. What I see and like is the quest chains with Alliance civilians and citizens, their personalities, personals truggles, hopes and dreams which you may disdain but they DO convey them in game.

  5. #85
    It's a good thing the story is fictional then. :P Blizzard has always chosen more dramatic storytelling over realism.

    Anduin has always been a natural diplomat and was an easy choice to allow him to lead, but he has had big shoes to fill and we've seen tensions exactly like you're describing with the elves in particular, willing to tentatively grant him that authority, but feeling the independence to overrule it when necessary. The night elves are at their most independent since WC3, and it's on Anduin and the rest of the Alliance to convince them that they're stronger together.

    And there already are lords trying to usurp him, you didn't hear about that? I forget which patch they released those books, but I expect that to come into play eventually once we get back from SL.

    With Sylvanas on the other side, we see that while her ascension to the warchief role was rather uncontested due to being passed willingly from Vol'jin, she doesn't do much leading in the inspirational sense. Baine is the one that steps up to do that here, while she skulks off to scheme.


    And I'm just dumbfounded at your response of "shouldn't one of the orcs have stepped up and challenged her to mak'gora?" yes, yes that would've made sense. You're absolutely right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    See this is one of the things that irks me the most, alongside can do no bad Anduin, with the "current" writing.

    Everything the Alliance does gets a pass because it would tarnish it. So the Horde does not exist for anything other than a foil to further the Alliance centric plot.
    However the overall perception is that the game is heavily Horde favored.

    This makes absolutely no sense.
    I would say that many times the Alliance exists or is treated by the writers as nothing but a punching bag for the Horde. Yes, we win in the end, but usually we loose something along the way to demonstrate right and wrong. In Pandaria it was Theramore, in BFA it was Teldrassil. The Horde's action always confirm who is right and wrong in a conflict.
    Garrosh nuking a city and torturing the refugees to death was a clear sign and so was Brennadan. People who do these things are never on the right side, no matter how much the Horde players want to find excuses and explanations.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    he is weak military wise and weak physically wise (it's canon that Anduin SUCKS as a sword fighter, even his warrior of a father gave up on him).
    Meanwhile sylvanas is a 90 pound elf chick that can lift mountains, cuz this isn't a fantasy world right? lol

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I would say that many times the Alliance exists or is treated by the writers as nothing but a punching bag for the Horde. Yes, we win in the end, but usually we loose something along the way to demonstrate right and wrong. In Pandaria it was Theramore, in BFA it was Teldrassil. The Horde's action always confirm who is right and wrong in a conflict.
    Garrosh nuking a city and torturing the refugees to death was a clear sign and so was Brennadan. People who do these things are never on the right side, no matter how much the Horde players want to find excuses and explanations.
    If you look purely at the faction conflict, sure. But dwarves are known to slaughter kids/teens.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Fanboying about a faction, ignoring the obvious is what is adorable here. Genocide is a dime a dozen in the warcraft universe, the Alliance merely pulls its punches in relation to the horde for whatever asinine reason.
    See this is what I mean. You want the world to be "genocide a dime a dozen" because that relativates the crimes of the Horde.

    The "asinine" reason is that the Horde is a player faction. If we would bring the entire force of the Alliance down on Orgrimmar it would be a smoldering ruin (we could probably do that with our spaceship or Jaina alone), but that would leave 50% of the game population without a faction. Hence why the Alliance never gets justice for the crimes of the Horde.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The point is the Alliance is willing to slaughter them, because they are enemies, even in their sleep. It is not about taint or anything like that, they are simply an enemy to get rid off,simply because they pose a threat.
    Because they never stop being a threat. Because they never willing to make peace and will fight until they all die.

    And yes horde is different ONLY because they make “peace” and then stab you in the back but somehow that counts in the eyes of Blizz writers.

  11. #91
    Yeah, the whole "High King" thing is stupid. It's what happened with Blizzard tried to "mirror the Horde" to make the Alliance cool, instead of really exploring their differences.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If you look purely at the faction conflict, sure. But dwarves are known to slaughter kids/teens.
    In one quest. And even then its mostly done by gnomes as far as i recall.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    See this is what I mean. You want the world to be "genocide a dime a dozen" because that relativates the crimes of the Horde.

    The "asinine" reason is that the Horde is a player faction. If we would bring the entire force of the Alliance down on Orgrimmar it would be a smoldering ruin (we could probably do that with our spaceship or Jaina alone), but that would leave 50% of the game population without a faction. Hence why the Alliance never gets justice for the crimes of the Horde.
    The horde commits crimes and is guilty of genocide and continues to commit heinous crimes, it has far more blood on their hand than the Alliance, but unlike you I am not blinded by faction bias, because to me they are both trash and hypocrites about their justice and honor.

    The Alliance has committed genocides, that is a fact. I am arguing that they should continue to do so against their enemies, the Alliance gets kicked in the balls all the time and can shoulder a genocide, so can the horde. Races that still have a population, that could easily be decimated are the tauren and orcs, which could be easily weaved into the story, to break horde dominance on Kalimdor.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Drustvar, Stormsong, and Tiragarde each had their own state of civil war we had to deal with.

    The Alliance was so busy dealing with their own problems in BFA that they had no idea why they were going into Uldir for the first raid.
    QFT.
    I main Alliance and I still don't know what was going on in Uldir.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    In one quest. And even then its mostly done by gnomes as far as i recall.
    Doesn't matter if it is one quest, especially if we consider, that these trolls are the natives of the land there and the dwarves being the invaders. It still happened and will continue to happen so long as the trolls are unwilling to give up their ancestral land.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because they never stop being a threat. Because they never willing to make peace and will fight until they all die.
    That is quite the statement to make and has no basis, the Vrykul are ancient and have every right to drive every human out of their lands, the lich king is gone now, meaning they are free so to speak and in regards to the naga we don't know if they are all in explicitly bound, the nerubians are literal old god flesh and turned away from their god.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    See this is what I mean. You want the world to be "genocide a dime a dozen" because that relativates the crimes of the Horde.

    The "asinine" reason is that the Horde is a player faction. If we would bring the entire force of the Alliance down on Orgrimmar it would be a smoldering ruin (we could probably do that with our spaceship or Jaina alone), but that would leave 50% of the game population without a faction. Hence why the Alliance never gets justice for the crimes of the Horde.
    Before i also wanted the “hero story” but then... BfA happened. Since Cata i thought “well story cant get any worse for the night elves they literally at their lowest point, now its only up, if slowly”. And for a moment, for a smallest second in Legion it really looked like things were going up.

    Then BfA happened.

    And i thought “Fuck it! Now we literally so deep down that nothing can be worse then THAT at least!” But then 8.1 happened and it was arguably worse then prepatch. And thats why i dont want a hero story anymore. I want to go full Goblin Slayer here because the amount of retardation and writers madness is too much. There is nothing else left to do on Azeroth but gut the horde and stangle them with their own intestines, burn their children alive and go full genocidal frenzy on their races till either Alliance dies out or Horde dies out.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I would say that many times the Alliance exists or is treated by the writers as nothing but a punching bag for the Horde. Yes, we win in the end, but usually we loose something along the way to demonstrate right and wrong. In Pandaria it was Theramore, in BFA it was Teldrassil. The Horde's action always confirm who is right and wrong in a conflict.
    Garrosh nuking a city and torturing the refugees to death was a clear sign and so was Brennadan. People who do these things are never on the right side, no matter how much the Horde players want to find excuses and explanations.
    Yeah, but here is the thing: all the Alliance does bad gets reframed so that it's actually always the Horde.

    Theramore is heavily painted as bad because of the mana bomb and the emotional perspective of Jaina, and Brennadan has parents impaled to walls while children stare crying.
    The Horde is responsible, that's fine: responsibility makes for apt narrative when developed properly.

    The Alliance carpet bombs the surroundings of civilians escaping Taurajo, kills children or at least threatens it by admission of quest text, sends purging squads to Vol'dun to exterminate Vulperas especially.
    The Alliance would be responsible, but much rather the scissor that's invisible in World of Roguecraft something excuses the actions of the Alliance or it gets straight up rewritten because of some kind of (legitimate or not) complaint on how the Alliance would end up being portrayed.

    So in the end we have a clear good and a clear bad, because one faction cannot do any bad and the other always will be put in a position to do so, no matter the wishes of its player base who way back when were content of being the edgy anti hero.

    So at the end of the day it's not a matter of explanation, but on how the writers see the plot and characters, and how it all gets furthered. There's no agency on that from the players, hasn't been in a very long time.

    Also, I always sigh when I see the overwhelming firepower of the Vindicaar being mentioned. The Vindicaar with all its might could open a small hole in a wall during its most significant deployment. Hardly something to write home about: if we're going with what's shown, the catapults that burned Teldrassil to the ground sport a way superior destructive power.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Doesn't matter if it is one quest, especially if we consider, that these trolls are the natives of the land there and the dwarves being the invaders. It still happened and will continue to happen so long as the trolls are unwilling to give up their ancestral land.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That is quite the statement to make and has no basis, the Vrykul are ancient and have every right to drive every human out of their lands, the lich king is gone now, meaning they are free so to speak and in regards to the naga we don't know if they are all in explicitly bound, the nerubians are literal old god flesh and turned away from their god.
    Vrykul we fought in Legion are not from Northrend. For all we know aggression against northred vrykul ended when Lich was gone or rather replaced. And Legion vrykuls (or kvaldirs) worshipped another evil entity.

    And naga never shown signs of having free, non-evil will. They only invade dry land to pillage, enslave and kill and never tried to parlay.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Also, I always sigh when I see the overwhelming firepower of the Vindicaar being mentioned. The Vindicaar with all its might could open a small hole in a wall during its most significant deployment. Hardly something to write home about: if we're going with what's shown, the catapults that burned Teldrassil to the ground sport a way superior destructive power.
    But Vindicaar has plot shield that allows it to survive constant attacks while flying close to the surface of Legion throne world of all things. Of course its overpowered.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yeah, but here is the thing: all the Alliance does bad gets reframed so that it's actually always the Horde.

    Theramore is heavily painted as bad because of the mana bomb and the emotional perspective of Jaina, and Brennadan has parents impaled to walls while children stare crying.
    The Horde is responsible, that's fine: responsibility makes for apt narrative when developed properly.

    The Alliance carpet bombs the surroundings of civilians escaping Taurajo, kills children or at least threatens it by admission of quest text, sends purging squads to Vol'dun to exterminate Vulperas especially.
    The Alliance would be responsible, but much rather the scissor that's invisible in World of Roguecraft something excuses the actions of the Alliance or it gets straight up rewritten because of some kind of (legitimate or not) complaint on how the Alliance would end up being portrayed.

    So in the end we have a clear good and a clear bad, because one faction cannot do any bad and the other always will be put in a position to do so, no matter the wishes of its player base who way back when were content of being the edgy anti hero.

    So at the end of the day it's not a matter of explanation, but on how the writers see the plot and characters, and how it all gets furthered. There's no agency on that from the players, hasn't been in a very long time.

    Also, I always sigh when I see the overwhelming firepower of the Vindicaar being mentioned. The Vindicaar with all its might could open a small hole in a wall during its most significant deployment. Hardly something to write home about: if we're going with what's shown, the catapults that burned Teldrassil to the ground sport a way superior destructive power.
    Because majority of Taurajo casualties are caused by quillboars and Overgrowth plants.

    Also because attacking vulpera caravans who were hauling cargo for the horde, military cargo at that is a legitimate strategy and not a crime. Vulpera mercenaries are not civilians. And no, “they are cute” dosent count since its the Rocket Raccoon thing all over again - size dont matter.

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