Mythic keys... pointless?

[Twdft]

Dungeons in wow were meant to be

It's almost as if WoW is Blizzards game and Blizzard can change the meaning of anything they like in it.

[Grimbold21]

Mythic+ trash murders tanks, yet hard CC isn’t used because they can kite.

It will be harder to kite in TBC for sure, but with it being fairly mainstream now I wouldn’t be surprised to see it happen in TBC classic.

That and how widespread it’s know how Paladins can aoe tank.

And higher dps.

But the kiting issue is itself a reflection of a couple of different things, namely that the content itself "forces" you to speed things up, so I guess it's better to eat the dmg until you cannot, and also shows something that just stuck with the player base since wrath, that is, the "gogogo" mentality.

Combine those two things and it's practically impossible to slow down the speed of the game.

As for kiting in TBC, I'm not sure it'll be similar. Back in TBC tanking was still largely a warrior's role, perhaps druids too (I actually don't remember these). Paladin tanks were fairly situational.

Moreover, TBC class design doesn't allow for the mobility you see today. Warriors had charge and that's basically it. The only thing it has over retail is that potions had 1 minute cd I believe, so you can set your tanking up accounting for that. But, no, people weren't able to run around like they do today.

[Alroxas]

Please explain why that's a terrible metric to use. If people only log in to raid, how is that good? Please explain.

As for if people only long in to raid: If players only enjoy raiding, then all the other crap is basically busy work (or chores) to do before they can enjoy the part of WoW they like. This is not an uncommon thought as many players have expressed this sentiment. They would rather do group content (i.e. raid) than farm up reagents for consumables, or endlessly grind AP from some dungeon or island expedition, or run 10 Mythic +14 each week so they can have a chance at 3 ilv 226 gear choices from the dungeon loot pool, or XYZ to get ready to raid.

But at the same time that you have these raiders, you have folks who would like to do nothing more than transmog hunt or pet battle. For them having to venture into a raid just to get a transmog or battle pet is troublesome. Same with those who only want to PvP, they don't want to PvE but sometimes it's necessary to get the gear to do so.

With limited time, players want do maximize their time doing their favorite activities and Blizzard (or anybody else) making them do busy work before they can enjoy that is feelsbad.

[Argorwal]

But the kiting issue is itself a reflection of a couple of different things, namely that the content itself "forces" you to speed things up, so I guess it's better to eat the dmg until you cannot, and also shows something that just stuck with the player base since wrath, that is, the "gogogo" mentality.

Combine those two things and it's practically impossible to slow down the speed of the game.

As for kiting in TBC, I'm not sure it'll be similar. Back in TBC tanking was still largely a warrior's role, perhaps druids too (I actually don't remember these). Paladin tanks were fairly situational.

Moreover, TBC class design doesn't allow for the mobility you see today. Warriors had charge and that's basically it. The only thing it has over retail is that potions had 1 minute cd I believe, so you can set your tanking up accounting for that. But, no, people weren't able to run around like they do today.

Improved Blizzard is how kiting would be done.

Not to the extent of SL, of course, but after hearing about the same song and dance of CC for classic and then it releases and nobody CCs anything.

[arkanon]

Raid logs can be a bad metric to use because the issue becomes what constitutes a "good" parse? Especially in SL where PI exists so a "good" parse might have been a group effort instead of a person's sole performance. Additionally, there are means/ways to make metrics skewed (aka padding the meters). Sure tools exists to minimize that (i.e. weighted DPS) but it doesn't eliminate them completely.

Um.......what? What does this have to do with only logging in to raid? Are you arguing against a point no one has made? There is a name for that, you know.....

[Gestopft]

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

If you don't think M+ is "strategically driven," then I have serious doubts that you do it beyond an entry level. And speaking of CC and class utility...I use class utility and CC way more often in M+ than on most raid bosses, partly because of the number of people involved, but mostly because raid bosses involve a lower proportion of CC-able mobs.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Again...if you don't think group coordination is a core essence of M+, you really aren't doing it at any reasonably difficult level.

[ellieg]

M+ is the only reason I play this game. There are no good guilds on my server and I don't really have the schedule to commit to a set raid time anyway. Getting 4+ dungeons in a week for 2 options of gear let's me progress at a reasonable pace. No team for m+ so pugging has been a struggle but grinding rio and making my own group solves that. Getting KSM has kept me engaged. 6 more dungeons to go. 9.0.5 shld drop after that and then I can casually farm for specific slots

[tru]

Timers ruined it for me. I miss slow dungeon crawls being a lock with only fear cc or succu and the uncertainty it brought.

[ellieg]

Timers ruined it for me. I miss slow dungeon crawls being a lock with only fear cc or succu and the uncertainty it brought.

I personally like timers. Its interesting for me to think about when to pop cds. Gotta weigh out the benefits of how much time it would save by when you pop it, vs whether you should save them cause the next pull / boss is difficult and you may need them just to kill it. Can lead to interesting skips or double pulls. Also makes it more important to do the correct rotation/ priority for dps. Fun dominating meter while sidestepping mechanics

[Malania]

I am 6/10m now and I am logging in 2 times a week for 3hours to raid.
That's it, thats all. Not even doing m+ for months now because its simply not worthwhile.

The situation is completely different than what you just described. There is nothing to do right now, we are in the mid of a content draught.its all in your head.

"For months now" so the implication is you did do it to get your gear boost on for raiding. Simply because you out geared it doesn't make the critique any less valid.

Personally I disagree with him but for different reasons.

[Hellobolis]

M+ is best thing that happened to dungeons. Outside the first two weeks they were useless, wasted art resources that ultimately became just a place you farm badges/valor/whatever.

M+ was the best thing that happened to dungeons. But now after 4 years have passed players have fucked it up again. You cant "just" do dungeons anymore. You have to know specific routes/strats/meta/have score/etc. no joke i spend more time preparing for M+ than for the raid.

time to change the system up again. (or at least make it so all the meta crap isn't relevant at +15 level again).

[VinceVega]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

I am only at 3/10 Mythic... but still... i literally do nothign else than log in twice a week to raid. MAYBE do covenant campaign if i feel like it. But mostly i just wait a week and get the renown from boss kills.

Don't do stuff you have no fun in. Simple as that. My gear is at 220. I only have one piece equipt i got from mythic+ chest at the start of the expansion

[Glorious Leader]

Thats a horrible metric to use.

Not really. It basically means the rest of the game isn't really worthwhile doing.

[Niwes]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

as often and by many ppl discussed, there are 3 things that should be done by Blizz:

1)
different gear paths. EITHER you can go the m+ route, OR you go the raid route, for one week. easy to implement.

2)
additional m+ variant, without a timer, where you can free scale „how hard mobs are hitting and how much life they have“ against level of rewards (imagine a slide bar for item level reward), additionally to affixes. more effort to implement.

3)
a solution (there are many out there discussed) for the „leavers and depleted key“ problem. easy to implement.

Result:

if Blizz would implement these 3 things, m+ and the whole game will be increased in quality and fun by factor 50. so, why they will not do it ? the simple answer is: wow is in „milk the cow“ mode. they invest as least as possible, to get out the most profit. „systems“ like azerite, essences, covenants, etc. are mostly based on a few UIs and DB entries, not real „content“, where a lot of coding, game engine and gfx is involved. if you wanna do above 3 things, you have to do it right. and this costs effort, time and money. something that Blizz will not invest. sad but true.

[erifwodahs]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

Well, it does. It's hard 5 man content, scaling challenge and with the valor point's it will be great. It's best addition to the game since higher difficulties for raiding.

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

So... You want just to stand around while mobs are CCd or what? What is enjoying CC? Good execution a hard pull with combination of CC is way better than just removing 3 mobs out of the fight to make it easy.

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Amm.... if you PvP you get weekly PvP item in the vault, if you Raid mythic, you get Mythic raid item in the vault, how is that mandatory? I mean in that regard - mythic raiding and Glad pvp is mandatory too. Because until we get valor points - weekly vault is a bonus, but for m+ players it's the only item.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

So 2v2 arenas are good for BiS loot, but 5 player dungeons are not? Seems you just don't want people being rewarded for doing hard content which you don't like. Borrowed power systems is another topic, but it's not like it's locked and accessible only to hardcore mythic raiders. Doing couple hours of questing unlocks all conduits.
You don't even have to do that tbf. Getting renown from dungeons/quets while you are gearing up is very very easy.

[T-34]

M+ was the best thing that happened to dungeons. But now after 4 years have passed players have fucked it up again. You cant "just" do dungeons anymore. You have to know specific routes/strats/meta/have score/etc. no joke i spend more time preparing for M+ than for the raid.

time to change the system up again. (or at least make it so all the meta crap isn't relevant at +15 level again).

What stops you from making your own group with like-minded people - people that don't have a score, play the meta spec, people that don't have a strat and a prepared route - and "just" do the dungeons?

[Noxina]

My bet here is that OP have never done anything higher than +10.

[T-34]

+
2)
additional m+ variant, without a timer, where you can free scale „how hard mobs are hitting and how much life they have“ against level of rewards (imagine a slide bar for item level reward), additionally to affixes. more effort to implement.

Any hard group content without an enrage function would just result in people stacking tanks and healers and wait for CD's between pulls.
So Blizzard will never implement this, but suggestions like this are very common from the part of the playerbase that just can't accept that it is unable to do this sort of content and can't accept that more skilled players get stuff that they don't get.

By they way nothing stops people from doing it now. Just pop your key, CC all mobs except one, kill pack one by one and repeat. You will even get some loot out of it.

[intenz]

I think M+ is great, and more fun than raiding, but the rewards are worthless.

[erifwodahs]

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Also this.. How on earth would anyone come up with this? I mean WoW had additions like pet battles or collections but to think that High End PvE/PvP is a side activity in WoW...

Group coordination and skill requirement in WoW has only increased every expansion. What do you think is happening in m+? Everyone just throwing their spells YOLO mode? well, text me when you get that KSM after overgearing it by 20ilvls and doing it on free weeks.