What about TBC do you think people will be most surprised by?

[Bigbazz]

- Warriors getting told they cant tank 5mans, because paladins have better aoe and lower skill cap

I mean that's never going to happen, but for sure Paladin will be more popular for dungeons. Tanks are in higher demand than supply in TBC, nobody gives a shit what tank it is if it means they can run the dungeon.

[AeneasBK]

Probably but at the same time you can craft Spellstrike Set (Head/Pants) + Frozen Shadoweave (Chest shoulders boots) and get two very good set bonuses while in order to fill 5 BIS slots from raiding only it will take you 10+ runs. Not to mention better PVP rewards, controlling world bosses dunno, anything super sweaty will do them all.

Presumably super sweaty people won't be complaining about all the competition though - I meant for just your casual player. Why would you grind to farm thousands of gold to buy primals for gear when you can just raid log and pick it up "for free"...

Is any of the crafted gear at launch so much better than easily available raid epics that even raiders will still want to craft them at such extortionate costs?

[Heathy]

its what makes it strange because i'm pretty sure not all classes needed all primals, I think for my priest belt I needed water and life, similarly if ppl were that serious about it you just have a transmute master or several. I have a feeling you could fish up w ater motes and transmute water into pretty much any other primal. the fire elementals will get camped, generally speaking i'm just glad I don't play on pvp, you could get fire motes from mining aswell iirc. but thats what it is, you save up motes over time and together with some transmuting you get your primals. life was easy and the cheapest because it came from herbs.

looking at the transmutes you can do.

water to air and air to fire.
life to earth and earth to water.

also water to shadow and mana to fire.

it is possible to turn the shittier primals or basically the ones you don't need into the ones you do, and anyone can fish up motes of water.

[Lord Pebbleton]

"Black Temple will take a month to be cleared! You just wait!!"

-The guy that said the same for Blackwing Lair, probably

[Bigbazz]

Presumably super sweaty people won't be complaining about all the competition though - I meant for just your casual player. Why would you grind to farm thousands of gold to buy primals for gear when you can just raid log and pick it up "for free"...

Is any of the crafted gear at launch so much better than easily available raid epics that even raiders will still want to craft them at such extortionate costs?

Depending on what blizzard makes available (since lots of it wasn't available at launch) - Almost every class has crafted gear that will see them through both T4 and T5 progression. Like the tailoring + LW cloaks for me are only matched by the World Boss BOE, which only spawns every 3 days I think and those items are all insanely good and end up on AH for crazy prices.

So for me if I set aside the World boss BOE's.

Vengeance Wrap/Cloak of Darkness - Replaced in Black Temple
Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike - Replaced by Warglaives or S3.
Thunder/Deep Thunder/Stormherald - Replaced by Cataclysm's Edge or S3 weapon, maybe.
Engineering Helm - Replaced in T6 (if you're really sweaty T5 is an extremely minor upgrade).
Ragesteel Shoulder => T4 and replaced in T5 (but you probably still got them on killing Vashj/KT)
Ragesteel Chest - Highest dps value of all blues (no stam) especially with 2set if BS.
Shadowprowler Chestguard - Replaced by T4 which is only a minor upgrade, mainly for 2 set.
Breastplate/Bulwark/Ancient of Kings - Armorsmithing armor, even stage 1 beats T4 and you can get stage 2 (T5 quality) during T4
Black Felsteel Bracers - Best until High King Maulgar drop.
Ragesteel Gloves - Almost equal to T4
Fel Leather Gloves - Best until T5, though Gruul gloves are better still.
Fel Leather Leggings - Best until Netherspite legs, which are a very minor upgrade.
Fel Leather Boots - Best until Morogrim Tidewalker (T5) boots, or T5 crafted LW (BOP must be LW) boots.


Like you can pick a class and spec and see a huge list of craftable items that outright beat everything from HC dungeons and often bleeding into T5 or T6. Crafting is literally everything when it comes to gearing in TBC and a lot of it is available right away.

"Black Temple will take a month to be cleared! You just wait!!"

-The guy that said the same for Blackwing Lair, probably

And yeah, Black Temple was never hard. Any guild that is capable of clearing Heroic Castle Nathria today is capable of steamrolling Black Temple in week 1, especially with the benefit of having had an extended period T5 to farm for gear.

[Argorwal]

Trash in raids harder than half the raid bosses.

Actually, probly the case in Classic too....i didnt really raid.

Can say we have had more wipes from the trash to C’thun than all bosses combined in AQ40.

- - - Updated - - -

Depending on what blizzard makes available (since lots of it wasn't available at launch) - Almost every class has crafted gear that will see them through both T4 and T5 progression. Like the tailoring + LW cloaks for me are only matched by the World Boss BOE, which only spawns every 3 days I think and those items are all insanely good and end up on AH for crazy prices.

So for me if I set aside the World boss BOE's.

Vengeance Wrap/Cloak of Darkness - Replaced in Black Temple
Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike - Replaced by Warglaives or S3.
Thunder/Deep Thunder/Stormherald - Replaced by Cataclysm's Edge or S3 weapon, maybe.
Engineering Helm - Replaced in T6 (if you're really sweaty T5 is an extremely minor upgrade).
Ragesteel Shoulder => T4 and replaced in T5 (but you probably still got them on killing Vashj/KT)
Ragesteel Chest - Highest dps value of all blues (no stam) especially with 2set if BS.
Shadowprowler Chestguard - Replaced by T4 which is only a minor upgrade, mainly for 2 set.
Breastplate/Bulwark/Ancient of Kings - Armorsmithing armor, even stage 1 beats T4 and you can get stage 2 (T5 quality) during T4
Black Felsteel Bracers - Best until High King Maulgar drop.
Ragesteel Gloves - Almost equal to T4
Fel Leather Gloves - Best until T5, though Gruul gloves are better still.
Fel Leather Leggings - Best until Netherspite legs, which are a very minor upgrade.
Fel Leather Boots - Best until Morogrim Tidewalker (T5) boots, or T5 crafted LW (BOP must be LW) boots.


Like you can pick a class and spec and see a huge list of craftable items that outright beat everything from HC dungeons and often bleeding into T5 or T6. Crafting is literally everything when it comes to gearing in TBC and a lot of it is available right away.

Some of the better crafted stuff takes Nether Votexes which were BoP drops only from T5 content so they won’t be crafted in phase 1 with only T4 available.

Nether Vortexes weren’t available for badges until way later

[Kralljin]

What I mean is : Yes I totally agree competition for farming Primals will be stiff; but at what point will people just say "fuck it I'll pick up t4 it's about as good" or w/e?

As a rule of thumb, T5 loot is generally equivalent / superior to most craftable pieces, cloth items are obviously the exception but that's the benchmark where most of the craftable armor items which do not require Nether Vortex (which only drops in T5 content) are being surpassed / have an equivalent.
Even some T4 items are on occassion equivalent already.

Naturally, Arena also is always an option, at least if they don't stagger the releases, then S2 also will offer equivalent items.

It's quite frankly very difficult to answer because the itemization is still a bit wonky and T5 brings in a bunch new recipes which require Nether Vortex and primals.

The whole thing never truly dies because every tier brings in new craftable which require some content specific material (Nether Vortex (T5), Heart of Darkness (T6), Sunmote (SWP)), which also always require some form of primal.

[stevenho]

Like the tailoring + LW cloaks for me are only matched by the World Boss BOE, which only spawns every 3 days I think and those items are all insanely good and end up on AH for crazy prices.

World bosses are about 1 week spawn, averaging the windows.
But I wonder if blizzard will treat their loot blizzlike, because it was not BoE until black temple. Frankly I doubt it because it would require someone to remember and flip a flag at 2.1 release. Too much work for a small indie dev.

[Echocho]

6. I can't even imagine how many heroic dungeon groups will be advertised with primal nether reserved. Until these go BOE in a later patch it's gonna suck crafting anything.

And why exactly can't you create your own group with no reservations?

[Bigbazz]

World bosses are about 1 week spawn, averaging the windows.
But I wonder if blizzard will treat their loot blizzlike, because it was not BoE until black temple. Frankly I doubt it because it would require someone to remember and flip a flag at 2.1 release. Too much work for a small indie dev.

You're right yeah, I'd forgot about the BOE change. I'd like to hope they make it BOP, though that doesn't really help anyone either way. The loot from those world bosses is much stronger than anything else available for many of the items, but it will be owned by whatever guild is organised in numbers and gets the jump on the timers.

[stevenho]

Yep. But also remember that even if they make it boe, it will be distributed within the guild for months. The really good items like talon, anger spark gloves etc.
You won't see that stuff on AH.

[Bigbazz]

Can say we have had more wipes from the trash to C’thun than all bosses combined in AQ40.

- - - Updated - - -



Some of the better crafted stuff takes Nether Votexes which were BoP drops only from T5 content so they won’t be crafted in phase 1 with only T4 available.

Nether Vortexes weren’t available for badges until way later

Out of that list I posted only the stage 3 Blacksmithing items need Nether Vortexes. If you talk about Vortex gear then the belts are by and large BIS pre Sunwell. If you discount the Vortex stage 3 gear then the Blacksmithing Stage 2 items I listed are still the best in T4 and still competitive with T5 items, while only requiring HC dungeons.

Like Dragonstrike, it requires Vortex's but isn't replaced until Warglaives/S3... But the stage two weapon Dragonmaw is still better than anything else you can get prior to T5 by a clear margin.

[AeneasBK]

Thanks for the replies, sorry for being off topic

I didn't raid 25 man content *much* in TBC although we killed bosses in every raid except Sunwell, and the crafted gear was for us a path to having much better gear, but I just wasn't sure if it was really going to be worth it if you could kill every raid boss every week that the tier is available which apart from week 1 or 2 I see as being done by most people who are interested in raiding. I'm sure crafting (non-resistance) gear like epic weapons or armor was more popular in Vanilla than Classic Vanilla, because of this reason.

At the very least I would imagine that will have a buffering effect on the price of primals as beyond a certain point a portion of the playerbase will just say "It's easier to get the marginally less good equivalent from the raid instance than attempting to farm the gold/primals myself" reducing the demand.

Will be interesting at any rate

[stevenho]

I didn't raid 25 man content *much* in TBC although we killed bosses in every raid except Sunwell, and the crafted gear was for us a path to having much better gear, but I just wasn't sure if it was really going to be worth it if you could kill every raid boss every week that the tier is available which apart from week 1 or 2 I see as being done by most people who are interested in raiding. I'm sure crafting (non-resistance) gear like epic weapons or armor was more popular in Vanilla than Classic Vanilla, because of this reason.

We already know that T5 won't be on release, so crafts will 100% be worth it for most people unless you are REALLY casual and would rather log off than farm stuff to craft an upgrade beceause "bosses still die".

[Th3Scourge]

Why the fuck would anyone care about optimizing Dungeons when after the first month People will be facerolling them regardless of their party make up.

Hell in TBC we never even ran a healer for most heroics we did and my main group of friends I played with played Prot Pally, Hunter, Ret Pally, Enhancement Shaman and Mage as our 5 man group.

My entire original point was that no one is going to bother with CC as most players are just going to aoe everything down. Apparently some other people on these forums think that the way the modern game is played won't impact how players approach TBC heroics/the game in general.

[Prag]

And why exactly can't you create your own group with no reservations?

This doesn’t scale and getting 4 other people together to roll a 5-man doesn’t feel like it entitles 4 other people to not have a chance at them.

But yeah, it’s simple. Don’t join groups that reserve them. Create a group with “no reserves” and you’ve already got a leg up over the guy who is.

[Super Kami Dende]

My entire original point was that no one is going to bother with CC as most players are just going to aoe everything down. Apparently some other people on these forums think that the way the modern game is played won't impact how players approach TBC heroics/the game in general.

Tbf, that's how we approached the game back then as well. CC was used in maybe 3 situations across all the Heroics and once you were geared even those became optional.

[kukkamies]

Probably the reputation grind to get into heroics. Takes a lot of time. Then heroics aren't that difficult after the rep grind. Good times in Cataclysm when similar difficulty heroics were on group finder. Still finished everything through it with not that many wipes. Too bad they were nerfed pretty quick

[Devilyaki]

Just how many people will ask to bring their alt to kara.

[AeneasBK]

We already know that T5 won't be on release, so crafts will 100% be worth it for most people unless you are REALLY casual and would rather log off than farm stuff to craft an upgrade beceause "bosses still die".

Good point, there's absolutely nothing else to do in TBC than grind gold for a marginal upgrade.