{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Jotaux]

Plus Bucky loses his arm in that fight.

[Ihavewaffles]

What, you mean a soulless super-soldier assassin would have performed better in combat than a deprogrammed Bucky with no reason to go all out against the people who helped him break that conditioning? Shocking. These are the same people who were able to subdue an empowered Killmonger before his suit got him out of the situation.

You can take people down without hurting them, they shouldn't be able to stand to toe to toe with him. They aren't supes.

Black widow had lots of trouble with bucky, even though she has little serum stuff in her. The wakandians? Got nothing.

[Ihavewaffles]

He was putting in minimal effort, and you see that in the fight and in his face... then they just disable his arm before any escalation happens.

He has superior strength, if he hold one of them, they aren't supposed to get out of his grip. Even with minimal effort he is supposed to be in control.

[Ihavewaffles]

Holding them down and overpowering them wasn’t his intentions. He was trying to defuse the situation.

She was going full-force on him and he was just nonchalantly defending himself against the hits. She’s struggling, he’s not... that’s why she just disabled his arm and moved on.

that don't make sense, he knows they single-mindedly want to kill zemo n won't be talked out of it..

[Skulltaker]

that don't make sense, he knows they single-mindedly want to kill zemo n won't be talked out of it..

If he, as an enhanced, uses full strength to fight them, there's always the danger of seriously injuring them by accident. See what happend to Battlestar. If he lets them proceed, they kill/take Zemo, whom he needs. If he hurts them, or even kills one of them by accident, he knows Wakanda will send more. Defusing the situation is the only path he has.

[Ihavewaffles]

u guys can think that, but I think he'd be expecting they would go for murder at once n would hold them down..

anyways, the whole show has had bucky acting underpowered..

- - - Updated - - -

If he, as an enhanced, uses full strength to fight them, there's always the danger of seriously injuring them by accident. See what happend to Battlestar. If he lets them proceed, they kill/take Zemo, whom he needs. If he hurts them, or even kills one of them by accident, he knows Wakanda will send more. Defusing the situation is the only path he has.

pfft, he can just hold them n they can't get out of his grip. he doesn't have to attack them..

what the flag-smash ginger did was different..she threw a punch with full force, i knew at once he was dead how his back hit that pillar..

u can't make super strength not count when u want some characters to do something beyond their power level, ordinary humans by the rules set by that universe would be like children trying to wrestle with an adult...gimme a break..

[Ophenia]

Yeah Bucky is a bit a pussy so far, except for the last guy he threw through the wall like he was nothing. But all the rest, he seems to be overpowered by anyone - even the other boosted guys should still be no match for a trained assassin with a vibranium arm.

But yeah, that seems to mostly be a Falcon show, not a Winter Soldier show. Maybe Bucky restrains himself in most fights as he doesn't want to become what he was a few years ago, and he will need to gradually unleash himself to face the incoming threats (Captain probably, and maybe Power Broker depending on who that is), which I have the feeling he is doing as he was a lot more "Winter-Soldier-y" in the last fight, compared to the one on the truck at the beginning of the serie.

Also, I don’t think Ayo’s intentions were to murder Zemo where he stands. I think she just wanted to take him back to Wakanda (alive) so he could face the consequences for his actions through them.

Dunno though. If not for her colleague (or was it Bucky ? Don't remember), the other girl would have pierced through Captain's head with no remorse. So killing Zemo would've not been a huge problem for them.

[Ihavewaffles]

There’s a reason why I mentioned him valuing and respecting them... and why you choosing an image of a parent holding children in that way and thinking he could do it to them, would go directly against what I said.

He’s not going to do that shit to them.

Holding someone down isn't a deadly sin, winter blossom..

[Ihavewaffles]

Underpowered a bit... yeah, I’d agree, for reasons I explained earlier, but not in this scene.

Also, I don’t think Ayo’s intentions were to murder Zemo where he stands. I think she just wanted to take him back to Wakanda (alive) so he could face the consequences for his actions through them.

well, taking someone alive they won't do if some supes stand in the way..I think murder was their only option.

[ProphetFlume]

But yeah, that seems to mostly be a Falcon show, not a Winter Soldier show.

Interesting that I feel the opposite, it's felt like the Bucky show since ep 2. I've been surprised how much more central Bucky has been, having personal growth and progressing the story. I expected it to be more about Sam since he's almost certainly going to be Cap by the end.

[Endus]

John Walker was Captain America for a brief stint in the Comics too. So were Bucky and Sam.

The further we get into this, the more I think we're gonna end this with the shield being destroyed and the mantle of Captain America tarnished beyond redemption. I think everyone arguing about who was gonna be the "new Cap" have been missing the point (and I'll freely include myself and all my "I think it's gonna be Bucky" theorizing earlier in the thread).

I think that's how they're gonna separate the MCU from the comics, here. Take a firm stance that mantles sometimes can't be passed on, because there's no one who can fill out the suit and live up to the original.

Which I thought was a great thing to add. They made his new arm, so there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t have added a safety feature like that, given how he came to them.

My favorite part of that was that it took three hits to get it off him. Whether it needs three specific hits, or it's just SUPER hard to hit, it made it a lot more believable than if there was just a big "off" button that Bucky had never noticed before.

He has superior strength, if he hold one of them, they aren't supposed to get out of his grip. Even with minimal effort he is supposed to be in control.

There's, like, entire martial arts about how to use leverage and torque to break holds by vastly stronger opponents.

Wrist restraints, for instance, are basically fucking useless against anyone who knows much of anything. Even if you grab with both hands. The grip is just too weak and it doesn't take any real strength to break it, just body leverage. I'm a decently big, strong guy, and I've had 100lb ladies break those grips from me in practice without any trouble, even with me legitimately trying to hold on. Not to mention being literally chucked a good ten feet across the room when I got stupidly overconfident and tried to outmuscle one friend when we were sparring. She got applause for that one. Wasn't even a real skill differential; we'd both started at the same time. I fucked up and relied on muscle over technique, and I got to fly for a second as my reward.

[formerShandalay]

well, taking someone alive they won't do if some supes stand in the way..I think murder was their only option.

There was one super in their way, while they were several and are still Wakandans, which means their gear is made out of Vibranium. They have no problem taking someone alive here, especially as the one supersoldier in the room has a weakness only they know about.
Also, Bucky said he wanted to talk, not fight.

I really don't agree with the way the Dora Milaje acted in that scene (even though it was a great fightscene), but Bucky and Sam were great. They are reluctant fighters here and not up against a Chitauri army. There's no need to bring out the big guns.

[Endus]

I’m just spinning circles with you here. I tried to get you to understand the scene but you’re too hardheaded.

Why isn't he wrecking the Wakandans in that fight scene? Because they're the best friends he has in that room. Better friends than Sam. Definitely better than Zemo and Walker. He likes them and it's hurting him that he even has to oppose them.

[eschatological]

Dunno though. If not for her colleague (or was it Bucky ? Don't remember), the other girl would have pierced through Captain's head with no remorse. So killing Zemo would've not been a huge problem for them.

That was very weird to me, actually.

First they said a line which didn't sit right with me ("We are our own jurisdiction" in summation), but it equally applies to Captain America interfering in Latvia, so I wrote it off. But during the fight, it looks like they're outright trying to kill Walker and Hoskins. Like, the first strike from the spear from Ayo would have gone straight through Cap's chest if he didn't put the shield up. Another threw a spear right at Hoskins head which he managed to deflect and have it spin out. Another was choking Hoskins out.

I have to wonder if this isn't a bit of a rogue operation from Ayo, who wants her revenge on Zemo, and not an officially sanctioned Wakandan mission.

It would also explain a bit about how nasty they are in a fight. Also, I believe most of their accessories are vibranium, so that evens the playing field a little with Bucky. Bucky's a STR based fighter, they seem to be DEX based fighters who can potentially wriggle away from being grappled by Bucky.

[Ihavewaffles]

There's, like, entire martial arts about how to use leverage and torque to break holds by vastly stronger opponents.

Wrist restraints, for instance, are basically fucking useless against anyone who knows much of anything. Even if you grab with both hands. The grip is just too weak and it doesn't take any real strength to break it, just body leverage. I'm a decently big, strong guy, and I've had 100lb ladies break those grips from me in practice without any trouble, even with me legitimately trying to hold on. Not to mention being literally chucked a good ten feet across the room when I got stupidly overconfident and tried to outmuscle one friend when we were sparring. She got applause for that one. Wasn't even a real skill differential; we'd both started at the same time. I fucked up and relied on muscle over technique, and I got to fly for a second as my reward.

you are comparing martial arts between regular humans, not human vs super human. Why can't you understand the difference?

[formerShandalay]

That was very weird to me, actually.

First they said a line which didn't sit right with me ("We are our own jurisdiction" in summation), but it equally applies to Captain America interfering in Latvia, so I wrote it off. But during the fight, it looks like they're outright trying to kill Walker and Hoskins. Like, the first strike from the spear from Ayo would have gone straight through Cap's chest if he didn't put the shield up. Another threw a spear right at Hoskins head which he managed to deflect and have it spin out. Another was choking Hoskins out.

I have to wonder if this isn't a bit of a rogue operation from Ayo, who wants her revenge on Zemo, and not an officially sanctioned Wakandan mission.

It would also explain a bit about how nasty they are in a fight. Also, I believe most of their accessories are vibranium, so that evens the playing field a little with Bucky. Bucky's a STR based fighter, they seem to be DEX based fighters who can potentially wriggle away from being grappled by Bucky.

I totally agree with the rogue operation thing. I mean, I'm very biased, because I hated Ayo from the moment she tried to bully Natasha in Civil War for no reason at all, but still, Ayo seems to me like the Wakandan version of John Walker... just with cooler looks and moves.
And her pulling the 'disarm' on Bucky in a situation that they had totally under control and where he was trying to get her to talk is just unneccesarily cruel, holy crap. I mean, if he went all out and was trying to kill them and keep Zemo out of jail under all circumstances, yea, ok, go ahead and shut off his arm. But this was no emergency and he was not trying to betray them.

ok, rant over

[eschatological]

I totally agree with the rogue operation thing. I mean, I'm very biased, because I hated Ayo from the moment she tried to bully Natasha in Civil War for no reason at all, but still, Ayo seems to me like the Wakandan version of John Walker... just with cooler looks and moves.
And her pulling the 'disarm' on Bucky in a situation that they had totally under control and where he was trying to get her to talk is just unneccesarily cruel, holy crap. I mean, if he went all out and was trying to kill them and keep Zemo out of jail under all circumstances, yea, ok, go ahead and shut off his arm. But this was no emergency and he was not trying to betray them.

ok, rant over

She also said "Bast damn you, James." You know when someone uses your first name, you're in trouble, and according to my comic book friend, Bast is a goddess in Egyptian lore, which the Wakandans follow, so a pretty serious curse and "breaking of the faith" betweeen her and Bucky, at least.

[formerShandalay]

She also said "Bast damn you, James." You know when someone uses your first name, you're in trouble, and according to my comic book friend, Bast is a goddess in Egyptian lore, which the Wakandans follow, so a pretty serious curse and "breaking of the faith" betweeen her and Bucky, at least.

Well, I sure hope Bast hits Ayo over the head for that. >.<

[Endus]

you are comparing martial arts between regular humans, not human vs super human. Why can't you understand the difference?

Because we're not talking about different physics.

Being able to lift 1000lbs over your head rather than 200 doesn't make it significantly more difficult to break a wrist grab you're holding on someone. Particularly not for a trained fighter. Technique matters one hell of a lot more than base strength.

[tyrlaan]

She also said "Bast damn you, James." You know when someone uses your first name, you're in trouble, and according to my comic book friend, Bast is a goddess in Egyptian lore, which the Wakandans follow, so a pretty serious curse and "breaking of the faith" betweeen her and Bucky, at least.

Interesting. We couldn't catch the line, so we replayed it with captioning on. And the caption just read "<something in Wakandan>, James" :-p