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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Basically the whole episode was about race. Like I said, it’s important to the story, I get it, but they went overboard with it.
    How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

    Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.

  2. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb.
    The experiments were with a drug so unstable it literally killed every candidate who took it except Isaiah Bradley. Not right away, but eventually. They were experimented on because they were seen as disposable; the equivalent of laboratory mice or chimpanzees. Which is why when it turned out Bradley actually survived, they didn't treat him like a human being, they locked him in a cage for thirty years and experimented on him.

    Like, they say this, explicitly, in the show. It isn't remotely unclear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

    Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.
    "Okay, can the black voices shut up so we can hear more white-focused talk and stop being asked to understand how bad race relations in the USA are?"

    This is a really fuckin' bad look people.


  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

    Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.
    You can always go too far with things, and when nearly every scene of an hour long superhero show is about race and the struggles black people of America are/were facing, it just gets to be too much, imo.

    Honestly, I don’t even want to go further with the discussion, even though you’re a mod, cause I know you’ve warned against it in this section. And while I’m sure you yourself won’t infraction me, another mod could.
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  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post

    Of course times were different.
    Not for a Black Man.

    No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".
    If they would be great for propaganda....why keep them secret? If they were valuable...why not at least try to rescue them before "destroying the evidence"?

    Why was Steve allowed to go free to galavant around Europe when Isaiah was held prisoner and forcibly experimented on?

    I know...... Steve Rodgers wasn't unthawed until much later meaning they couldn't have experimented on him anymore. They able to create a new super soldier and were able to use him to experiment on for decades. They didn't need to worry about unthawing Steve.
    They didn't have Steve to unthaw... but as soon as they did...he got to go on his merry way. Isaiah Bradley had to fake his death to escape from experimentation. Steve Rogers just had to be white.

    Isaiah was a super soldier they didn't need anymore except to hopefully make more. And they already knew how effective they were recreating a serum from just Steve's blood so why on earth would you think they would just stop at his blood??
    They weren't that effective at creating super soldiers though. Isaiah is the only one that survived... and not because they were all killed in battle. They were killed by the Serum.

    Do you think it was just a coincidence that all that people that received their serum variants were black men?

    Maybe you've heard of the Tuskagee Experiments? This is an obvious parallel.
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  5. #645
    Like what happens when a Muslim girl who looks up to Captain Marvel becomes Ms. Marvel? Cause I believe that's a show Marvel has planned too.

    Falcon literally first was published IN NINETEEN SIXTY FUCKING NINE. Isaiah Bradley's story was written IN TWO THOUSAND AND THREE, almost 20 years ago. Miss me with this shit.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2021-04-17 at 05:15 AM.

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can always go too far with things, and when nearly every scene of an hour long superhero show is about race and the struggles black people of America are/were facing, it just gets to be too much, imo.
    Why?

    It's entirely relevant to Sam and what he's going through. Why shouldn't the show get into all that?


  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The experiments were with a drug so unstable it literally killed every candidate who took it except Isaiah Bradley. Not right away, but eventually. They were experimented on because they were seen as disposable; the equivalent of laboratory mice or chimpanzees. Which is why when it turned out Bradley actually survived, they didn't treat him like a human being, they locked him in a cage for thirty years and experimented on him.

    Like, they say this, explicitly, in the show. It isn't remotely unclear.
    Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can always go too far with things, and when nearly every scene of an hour long superhero show is about race and the struggles black people of America are/were facing, it just gets to be too much, imo.

    Honestly, I don’t even want to go further with the discussion, even though you’re a mod, cause I know you’ve warned against it in this section. And while I’m sure you yourself won’t infraction me, another mod could.
    It is directly a theme of this show. It is plain, and laid bare for anyone to see. It's not infraction worthy to discuss what's actually shown in a show. It is off-topic to discuss conspiracies and made up "agendas" that only exist outside of the framework of the show.

    I want to know how you think it's "overboard."

    Because your excuse of "too much racial relations stuff in my superhero show" makes me think you know nothing about the comics these shows are based on, which have been diving into these issues, in depth, for 60 years. And the cinematic universe based on those comics WAITED THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS TO INTRODUCE AN INCH OF DEPTH INTO THEIR FUCKING STORY. They spent more than a decade wallowing in inch-deep waters, the deepest thing they said being "you can't trust the government" in Civil War, and now...it's too overboard. 13 years after the MCU started.

    Like, come on. Comics have been on the forefront of talking about these issues in our culture.

  9. #649
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.
    They weren't trying to create soldiers. They were using them as guinea pigs so they could study how their serum went wrong as it killed them so they could tweak future formulations. Literally explicitly stated. The only reason they didn't kill Bradley outright was because they could get more use out of him by keeping him in a cage for the rest of his natural life. Which, as far as they know, they did; he only got out by faking his death.

    It's like you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the story. And you're coming real close to suggesting that Bradley should be thankful for the benefits he gained.


  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.
    Nah, you create soldiers you think you can control. Which, after all, was the huge problem with Steve Rogers, in their mind. They couldn't control him.

    But they controlled Isaiah Bradley pretty easily. They broke him, and then he was erased. Completely. That's the point.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb. It's like deadpool where they somehow create an even more powerful version of wolverines regeneration and instead of using it on themselves to be rich immortal assholes they give it to some dipshit.
    All but one of the people they were giving "powers" to died. They were guinea pigs. Nazi scientists did the same kind of thing to the jews...subjecting them to all kinds of strange medical experiments just to see what might work.

    Read some history. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...al-experiments
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  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It is directly a theme of this show. It is plain, and laid bare for anyone to see. It's not infraction worthy to discuss what's actually shown in a show. It is off-topic to discuss conspiracies and made up "agendas" that only exist outside of the framework of the show.

    I want to know how you think it's "overboard."

    Because your excuse of "too much racial relations stuff in my superhero show" makes me think you know nothing about the comics these shows are based on, which have been diving into these issues, in depth, for 60 years. And the cinematic universe based on those comics WAITED THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS TO INTRODUCE AN INCH OF DEPTH INTO THEIR FUCKING STORY. They spent more than a decade wallowing in inch-deep waters, the deepest thing they said being "you can't trust the government" in Civil War, and now...it's too overboard. 13 years after the MCU started.

    Like, come on. Comics have been on the forefront of talking about these issues in our culture.
    It’s nothing specific that bothered me, and it’s not that the topic is being brought up. Like I said, I thought it went overboard because nearly every scene in the hour long episode was about race and the struggles black Americans are/were facing. It got too heavy in a show that’s about superheroes.

    That’s really it. I haven’t had any issues about it in previous episodes. I don’t need explosions and action in every episode, in every scene, but I also don’t want to watch nearly an entire episode dedicated to racial issues in a show that’s about superheroes.

    And don’t misunderstand, these issues should absolutely be included in this particular show because of the story - I’m not saying they shouldn’t.
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  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I honestly don't see "Captain America" being a thing, moving forward. I think either Bucky or Sam could carry the shield, with a repaint so it carries a new symbol. Probably a deviation from the comics. One thought I had with the new Wakanda gear Sam got; the Wakandans like colors. We've got Black Panther, and Bucky is "White Wolf". Given the offhand reference to the Redtails by Isaiah, maybe "Red Falcon"? Heck, it would even forestall calling him "Black Red Falcon", because that's just fuckin' silly.
    I figured with his expression and the "ok, I can do this" breath he took when he opened the Wakandan box, that they had painted it in Cap's colors (presumably at Bucky's request since he basically gave Sam his blessing). But I could just be reading too much into it, and we'll find out in a week.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2021-04-17 at 05:38 AM.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Nah, you create soldiers you think you can control. Which, after all, was the huge problem with Steve Rogers, in their mind. They couldn't control him.

    But they controlled Isaiah Bradley pretty easily. They broke him, and then he was erased. Completely. That's the point.
    They somewhat controlled him. Then they broke him and luckily he was saved by a single "good" person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    All but one of the people they were giving "powers" to died. They were guinea pigs. Nazi scientists did the same kind of thing to the jews...subjecting them to all kinds of strange medical experiments just to see what might work.

    Read some history. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...al-experiments
    Yeah and how many of the Jews did they try to make super soldiers out of then have fight for them???

    I already said I can see racists experimenting on people they hate. I don't see them making them better than themselves. That literally goes against their core belief of being better than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They weren't trying to create soldiers. They were using them as guinea pigs so they could study how their serum went wrong as it killed them so they could tweak future formulations. Literally explicitly stated. The only reason they didn't kill Bradley outright was because they could get more use out of him by keeping him in a cage for the rest of his natural life. Which, as far as they know, they did; he only got out by faking his death.

    It's like you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the story. And you're coming real close to suggesting that Bradley should be thankful for the benefits he gained.
    What are you on about. No where did I say he should be grateful. It's disgusting that you would try and twist what I said into something so disgusting. You really should take a look at yourself if thats what you think. They literally had him out during the Korean War trying to kill Bucky. That's not keeping him as a guinea pig. Given the fact that Steve already told them to fuck off he wasn't going to just be a promo boy you would think that even if a racist decided to only use black people they would have had any survivors perma locked up. Clearly you didn't pay attention thinking he was perma locked up. Maybe don't go insulting people without checking a wiki first?

  15. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    It’s nothing specific that bothered me, and it’s not that the topic is being brought up. Like I said, I thought it went overboard because nearly every scene in the hour long episode was about race and the struggles black Americans are/were facing. It got too heavy in a show that’s about superheroes.
    I really take issue with the bold.

    There's nothing about "superheroes" that suggests a product should be seen as shallow. The Iliad and the Odyssey, and a heck of a lot of other Greek myths, are really just stories about superheroes. They just called them "demigods". That's just a difference in origin story, though. Same for a lot of other early mythology. A lot of early science fiction, like Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, involve characters who are as much "superheroes" with tech as Tony Stark is. "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" is a classic that's the direct inspiration in many ways for the Hulk. And so on.

    These are themes and concepts that have literally echoed through the stories humanity has told each other for as long as we've had records to write those stories down, and likely far longer.

    And many of those stories deal with very heavy issues. Many modern comics do. Watchmen is pretty damned heavy, and was published in the mid-80s, 35 years ago, and won the Hugo the year after it was finished. It's not really about superheroes, but the graphic novel Maus won the Pulitzer back in '92.

    This is a mature and complex genre. It deals with real, heavy issues, and has done so for longer than most of us have been alive. Race, in particular, has been a recurring issue of discussion for Marvel for better than 50 years, through conscious and deliberate choice.

    This is what the genre is about. I flatly do not understand people arguing that it should just be shallow, empty nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    What are you on about. No where did I say he should be grateful. It's disgusting that you would try and twist what I said into something so disgusting. You really should take a look at yourself if thats what you think. They literally had him out during the Korean War trying to kill Bucky. That's not keeping him as a guinea pig. Given the fact that Steve already told them to fuck off he wasn't going to just be a promo boy you would think that even if a racist decided to only use black people they would have had any survivors perma locked up. Clearly you didn't pay attention thinking he was perma locked up. Maybe don't go insulting people without checking a wiki first?
    "Despite his service to the United States of America in the Korean War, Bradley was put in prison for thirty years. During that time, scientists ran tests on him, took samples of his blood."

    ""For the next thirty years, they experimented on me, trying to figure out why the serum worked. There was a nurse. She took pity on me. Wrote up some fake reports, something. She had me declared dead.""

    https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fand...d_Experimented

    Maybe follow your own advice, there, champ?


  16. #656
    It's Hollywood who made superheroes shallow, in an attempt to make it more palatable to everyone. And it worked.

    But even Reeves' Superman movies had some depth to them. It was mainly the 80s/90s Batmans saccharine-sweet movies which turned the superhero genre shallow. Christopher Nolan explored a grimdark version of the genre, but it still wasn't too deep. It's 30 years of movies which have made superheroes shallow. That's it. And even in there, you have things like Watchmen (which was still butchered in terms of its themes by Zach Snyder) and some of the X-Men movies which touched on these things.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    "Despite his service to the United States of America in the Korean War, Bradley was put in prison for thirty years. During that time, scientists ran tests on him, took samples of his blood."

    ""For the next thirty years, they experimented on me, trying to figure out why the serum worked. There was a nurse. She took pity on me. Wrote up some fake reports, something. She had me declared dead.""

    https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fand...d_Experimented

    Maybe follow your own advice, there, champ?
    Can you not read? He was out...... he was locked up after...... You literally just posted exactly what I have been saying LOL. You sure are a spiteful person to try and prove someone was wrong without even seeing what was said...

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I flatly do not understand people arguing that it should just be shallow, empty nonsense.
    I’m not arguing that.
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  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’m not arguing that.
    You seem to be implying that the superhero genre shouldn't focus on stories like this.

  20. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Can you not read? He was out...... he was locked up after...... You literally just posted exactly what I have been saying LOL.
    He was not "out". He did a couple missions as they tested his capacity, and then was locked away for 30 years when he didn't die like they expected him to.

    They were abusing black servicemen and using them as guinea pigs. Trying to whitewash that to be anything but the travesty of human rights that it would have been is an insult to every black American who died in similar programs and tests in the real world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’m not arguing that.
    You complained about the themes being "heavy".

    The alternative to that is the themes being just light and shallow.


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