{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Sorrowseer]

It’s not just that episode that bothered me. The show, imo, is...

- too political
- too woke
- too rushed
- odd pacing
- boring/useless characters
- personal family scenes that just drag on

- I’m annoyed that they nerfed Bucky and buffed Sam.
- The ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense, other than to give the guy a reason for why he could slip away.

There’s more I could think of... but, yeah, not really a fan of this one. Hopefully Loki is more entertaining.

Agreed with every single point ^^ I had low expectations going in and they were not even met.

[Darththeo]

the thing he is not just fighting like a normal man, but he is also taking damage like a normal man, hits he should not even care are making him growl in pain

i personally don't like that, like i hate most of the mcu power lv shit, but again, this is completely my point of view.

Steve had those kind of reactions to hits in the MCU. They are more durable, but it is still going to get hurt and take damage.

Essentially, your complaint is "I don't like how Bucky isn't Superman" but the Super soldiers aren't that kind of strength and durability.

They are peak human strength, peak human durability. They aren't above it, they are just the best that the spectrum could go.

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Agreed with every single point ^^ I had low expectations going in and they were not even met.

Then I am going to ask you the same questions, I asked them that they ignore.

Too Political? The show is literally involves the mantle of Captain America. It is going to be a very political show for that fact alone.
Too woke? Are we watching the same show, because honestly, I feel I don't understand what "woke" means anymore. What is "woke" to you?
Too rushed? I can't see how you can say this. It is a faster pace than Wandavision, but that is because the shows are different tonal. Honestly, the shows pacing is akin to the Captain America movies to me.
Odd pacing? This is literally the same point as above but worded differently.
Boring/Useless Characters? Name one character or describe them if you feel this is true.
Personal Family scenes that just drag on? Oh no! Character development and backstory is bad!

Nerfed Bucky? It isn't like he is dealing with PTSD to an extreme no other human possibly could. It isn't like he just lost the only person in the world he had really connected. If you haven't figured out that Bucky is weaker because he is struggle with a huge mental issue that is going to hold anyone back, I don't honestly think you are paying attention to the show.
Buffed Sam? Not really, Sam's powers are pretty similar since Civil War.

Ruthlessness of the Wakanda women made no sense ... did you not watch Black Panther or Civil War? If they have a goal, they will not have someone stand in their way. That's their character. You are literally whining about established traits saying "it doesn't make sense." When we saw similar behavior in two prior movies from them.

[Egomaniac]

I'm not sure why people are shocked that a show about who becomes the next Captain America is "too political"

Captain America is a political character. He ALWAYS has been. He was basically created to be propaganda. Even in the movies he's always been political... and if you don't believe me I encourage you to watch Winter Soldier again and try reading between the lines.

[Stardrift]

To avoid the real world reasons that other have pointed out.

Race issues is one of the core themes of the source material (the sam captain American run)

Captain American even in universe is steeped in politics and race issues with every black captain American even more so then the white ones.

To leave out core themes and challenges of the source material just brings up the question why adapt it at all and not just make something comply new?

Refreshing to see someone here speak normally. Appreciated.

You'd be correct. But wasn't Cap all about secret nazi/Russian organizations, and was essentially WWII and Cold War propaganda? So at the time of the original comics, you would be right about it being purely political.

It just doesn't sit easy with me I guess with things going from war politics straight down to.. social politics, something that's being done to death in every medium.

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I'm not sure why people are shocked that a show about who becomes the next Captain America is "too political"

Captain America is a political character. He ALWAYS has been. He was basically created to be propaganda. Even in the movies he's always been political... and if you don't believe me I encourage you to watch Winter Soldier again and try reading between the lines.

You are correct. But what I'm saying is going over your head. Social issues shouldn't even be political. They're in everything at this point. Sam and Bucky are fighting a nazi organization and Russian intelligence yet we've got time to lecture us on social politics? It's just weird, jarring, and tiresome considering these lectures are in everything.

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Because you refuse to take some personal accountability and seek out non-political entertainment, and instead demand a traditionally very political company avoid the political messaging they have consistently included in their material.



As an African-American, who grew up and lives in the USA?

Yes.

That's the point.

That the show is "about superheroes" in no way suggests they shouldn't explore these kinds of themes. For Marvel in particular, race has been a constant topic of discussion and allegory in their work; the framing of the mutants was always intended as an allegory for the civil rights movement of its time, and in the '90s, they shifted the allegory to LGBT acceptance, which was more politically current.

Fiction's purpose is to explore real human issues. Politics, human nature, ethics, morality, all that stuff. A tradition dating back prior to recorded history, and universally among human cultures.

Hell, this show isn't even "for kids", so you can't use that excuse either. It's rated TV14, the same rating as Law and Order: SVU, Breaking Bad, The Expanse, pretty much most "adult" television that isn't HBO's borderline-softcore like Game of Thrones.



All you're saying here is you don't want to hear about issues affecting black Americans. You aren't supporting their voices, you're asking them to shut up because what they're saying makes you uncomfortable.

I do seek out non political stuff. Over time, it immediately turns political because people pressure companies, studios, directors, writers, etc to make statements.

D&D for fuck's sake, released a new handbook getting rid of racial restrictions because people can't stop comparing POC to barbaric orcs, evil elves, etc.

It's another "coolest monkey in the jungle" situation.

[Endus]

I do seek out non political stuff. Over time, it immediately turns political because people pressure companies, studios, directors, writers, etc to make statements.

Oh, come on. That's nonsense. Even ignoring the inherent contradition of something occurring "immediately, over time".

D&D for fuck's sake, released a new handbook getting rid of racial restrictions because people can't stop comparing POC to barbaric orcs, evil elves, etc.

That isn't what it was about, to begin with. One big thrust was just to improve player creativity, by allowing a dwarf to be as smart as a gnome, at first level, for instance, or that your Half-Orc raised by humans doesn't just magically know Orcish for some reason.

The second was about removing the inherency of alignment, and just alignment, to most races and creatures; a Drow isn't Evil because just because it's genetically Drow. It's because most Drow come from a culture that is evil. So a Drow raised outside that culture, or who rejects that culture, isn't bound to that alignment; they have free will. Same for any other race.

The way it was, "hey look, it's a goblin village! Let's murder them all, even the women and children!" was a defensible stance by a lawful-good player character. Because they're goblins. They're evil. Even the little baby gobbos. Exterminate the lot! That's just a shitty kind of interpretation of alignment, and they've finally adapted to a better model moving forward. It doesn't mean for one second you can't have a ravening horde of evil Orcs terrorizing the countryside. It's that you should be trying to stop them because they're ravening the countryside, not just because they're Orcs.

This is the problem; you keep misrepresenting stuff like this. The book's changes were made to boost player creativity and flexibility, and encourage better characterization by DMs. And you've got a problem with that, obviously.

Speaking as someone who's pretty darned into D&D and has been active in community discussions on this particular subject for a pretty long time.

If you don't like Marvel content, feel free to not watch Marvel shows. But kindly stop trying to piss in everyone's Wheaties because we enjoy content that you so clearly don't.

[Egomaniac]

You are correct. But what I'm saying is going over your head. Social issues shouldn't even be political. They're in everything at this point. Sam and Bucky are fighting a nazi organization and Russian intelligence yet we've got time to lecture us on social politics? It's just weird, jarring, and tiresome considering these lectures are in everything.

And yet they always have been. Pretending otherwise is folly.

[Sorrowseer]

Steve had those kind of reactions to hits in the MCU. They are more durable, but it is still going to get hurt and take damage.

Essentially, your complaint is "I don't like how Bucky isn't Superman" but the Super soldiers aren't that kind of strength and durability.

They are peak human strength, peak human durability. They aren't above it, they are just the best that the spectrum could go.

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Then I am going to ask you the same questions, I asked them that they ignore.

I am British, the political stuff for a fake america bores me.

[Egomaniac]

I am British, the political stuff for a fake america bores me.

I'd advise you to find a different program then.

[s_bushido]

I am British, the political stuff for a fake america bores me.

Strange... The show is about the legacy of a character called Captain America. Two guesses about why there's talk of American politics in it.

[Endus]

Strange... The show is about the legacy of a character called Captain America. Two guesses about why there's talk of American politics in it.

And, ironically, they seem to be trying to put that legacy to rest in a very concrete manner, moving forward, unless I miss my guess.

It's pretty telling that it's only an issue here, and not with all the other films featuring Steve as a main character.

[tyrlaan]

@Stardrift doesn't actually answer questions or provide examples or definitions to back up their bullshit.

Personally I recommend not wasting time on them anymore so those of us who are interested in mature conversations can go back to talking about the show.

[Darththeo]

I am British, the political stuff for a fake america bores me.

Okay, that means you are just bored by the show. It doesn't actually support anything in the post you agreed with earlier.

And you are literally watching a show involves the mantle of Captain America ... who was a political characters since his creation dealing with "fake america's politics." You knew what the show as going to be about in the first episode.

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D&D for fuck's sake, released a new handbook getting rid of racial restrictions because people can't stop comparing POC to barbaric orcs, evil elves, etc.

This is a gross oversimplification of the rules added in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. First being, they didn't get rid of any racial restrictions at all. They added racial options for greater customization of characters. Many players and DMs house ruled things like that anyway, so all it did was provided an officially licensed rule set to use it.

[tyrlaan]

This is a gross oversimplification of the rules added in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. First being, they didn't get rid of any racial restrictions at all. They added racial options for greater customization of characters. Many players and DMs house ruled things like that anyway, so all it did was provided an officially licensed rule set to use it.

Dramatically off-topic comment: cool to see some fellow D&D players here

[Stardrift]

@Stardrift doesn't actually answer questions or provide examples or definitions to back up their bullshit.

Personally I recommend not wasting time on them anymore so those of us who are interested in mature conversations can go back to talking about the show.

You've been attacking, gaslighting, and strawmanning me this entire time, despite knowing the exact answers to the loaded questions you've been asking me. You're not worth speaking to

[tyrlaan]

You've been attacking, gaslighting, and strawmanning me this entire time, despite knowing the exact answers to the loaded questions you've been asking me. You're not worth speaking to

Provide examples of where I attacked, gaslighted, and/or strawmaned you.

[Stardrift]

And yet they always have been. Pretending otherwise is folly.

It shouldn't be political to be a certain colour. It shouldn't be political to be trans. It shouldn't be political to be a woman in the work force.

Extremists, racists, homophobes, sexists, radicals, etc on all sides of the spectrum need to get over themselves and eachother. I'm sick of hearing it. I don't see colour or gender or sexuality. I just see a person. I want something of substance, not these shallow virtue signal contests.

[Egomaniac]

It shouldn't be political to be a certain colour. It shouldn't be political to be trans. It shouldn't be political to be a woman in the work force.

It shouldn't be. But it is. Always has been.

Again, pretending otherwise is just folly.

And pretending that acknowledging these things is "virtue signaling" is worse.

[Endus]

It shouldn't be political to be a certain colour. It shouldn't be political to be trans. It shouldn't be political to be a woman in the work force.

Until those things have the societal impact of, say, "being left-handed", they'll remain political.

That political nature exists because if the inequities in play.

Extremists, racists, homophobes, sexists, radicals, etc on all sides of the spectrum need to get over themselves and eachother. I'm sick of hearing it. I don't see colour or gender or sexuality. I just see a person. I want something of substance, not these shallow virtue signal contests.

Willful blindness to these inequities, such as "colorblindness", is not a lack of racism. It's a refusal to acknowledge racism, and thus allow said racism to continue. Same goes for any similar willful blindness. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...is-form-racism

Shutting your eyes doesn't make the problems go away. And again; if you don't want this kind of messaging, you can choose your entertainment more carefully. You're the one who's got a problem, here, not Marvel.

[Stardrift]

Clearly, these four won't stop bombarding me with further lecturing and ping ponging off of their circlejerk.

Sorry for disrupting your lectures. I believe you guys have Colbert to watch in a couple hours so I'll let you to it.

[Egomaniac]

Clearly, these four won't stop bombarding me with further lecturing and ping ponging off of their circlejerk.

Sorry for disrupting your lectures. I believe you guys have Colbert to watch in a couple hours so I'll let you to it.

I'm sorry you think that when people disagree with you it must be because of a "circle jerk".

A final "lecture":

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you've run into as asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole"