What "soft nerf" mechanic does Shadowlands have?

[NotTrolling]

In past expansions, Blizzard has implemented hard nerfs, or more recently "soft nerfs" to raid tiers over time. In BFA, we had Azerite armor tiers, and neck level increases from AP grind, Legion had artifact traits + AP, WoD had the legendary ring etc. With Shadowlands, there is none of that aside from the usual power creep from increase in ILVL. Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever. As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

[Pandorox]

In past expansions, Blizzard has implemented hard nerfs, or more recently "soft nerfs" to raid tiers over time. In BFA, we had Azerite armor tiers, and neck level increases from AP grind, Legion had artifact traits + AP, WoD had the legendary ring etc. With Shadowlands, there is none of that aside from the usual power creep from increase in ILVL. Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever. As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

You can say that the Covenant system is a power creep for the 1st raid tier(Unlocking more soulbinds & increasing conduits) & Legendaries slowly increasing ilvl every week I guess

[ShaanuJaanu]

covenant literally is what you described....most top guilds did dps race fights like sludgefist without 2nd/3rd conduits..now guilds have last row on all soulbinds.

[TheRainman]

Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic...

What? I know they have nerfed loot quantity and drop rates, but it is hardly the slowest it's been since classic. I literally hit 60 this week on my hunter and he's already over 200 ilvl. He hasn't been dragged through our alt heroic raid, or any guild m+ groups to leach gear. Playing him relatively casually, (certainly closer to casual than hardcore) with no carries and he's still over 200. I would say gearing difficulty is grossly exaggerated.

As far as an on-topic response - I haven't really pugged much of CN on my alts, so I can't really give my perspective on participation as far as that goes. M+ groups post and get filled pretty quickly I would say. Though that is obviously just my experience, and 100% subjective.

Keep in mind that cov armour scales to 197 (3 ilvl lower than normal mode CN save for the last two bosses) and pvp gear scales too. I've seen way more people from my guild pvping this expansion than in previous ones to help supplement gear. I think it's totally possible that normal pugs aren't forming as much (assuming that's true) because it's so easy to get to the same ilvl as normal mode in other ways, and not worth the hassle of trying to coordinate 9+ other players for a very marginal ilvl increase.

Even heroic mode ilvl is easy to obtain with low level m+ keys. As I said before, I would wager that if there is indeed less interest or participation in pugging CN, it's because people are getting there equivalent gear elsewhere and not that they are just so overwhelmed with CN's difficulty or gearing woes that they just give up.

As a final @OP, I would also say that yes, even with everything else I said I still expect that Blizz will do something to make content more approachable via a soft nerf, perhaps just naturally with covenant binds and conduits.

[Nnyco]

The entire soulbind tree and health increase from renown? Soz if you need more.

[Argorwal]

The significant soft nerfs are typically only in the final tier of the expansion.

For now we have soul binds, conduits, and sockets.

[crazyman2]

Gear itself was a soft nerf for most guilds. Even the normal raid was not easy at 180, and loot was significantly more restricted at that time.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I mean between gear and the flat nerfs Blizzard has been putting on content you don't need much else. They more or less are gutting an encounter every week or two and free passing people onto the next. By this point people doing at least mild m+ (like +10s) and heroic/some mythic raiding then you are already out gear just about all of the content minus the last few mythic bosses and super high keys. I mean 220 is pretty much right at the bottom edge of fully geared.

[Zig Zug]

Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever.

Strange, because your name says spesifically, you're not trolling.

(Your premise is false)

[Hypasonic]

Well blizzard have been nerfing some of the bosses in the past few weeks. That on top of conduits is all really.

[Varaben]

I'd say the sheer scaling that happens from gear in shadowlands is a soft nerf. I don't remember if prior expansions were like that, but damage has ramped up significantly.

[Ange]

I'd say the sheer scaling that happens from gear in shadowlands is a soft nerf. I don't remember if prior expansions were like that, but damage has ramped up significantly.

BoE Race to WorldFirst

With WF kills happening at gear levels that a normal guilds gets maybe 3 months later, the soft nerf does not happen. And even those top guilds use the same composition and geared mains just to get the rekills and still strugle with some bosses.

Thats not a soft nerf, thats a hard tuned raid tier with no softing at all, just the hardcore raiders using 3 months or gear advantage for 100+ millions of gold each tier.

A soft nerf would exist, if the best raiding guilds could not only farm mythic with half twinks/off-meta-composition but also with 2-3 boosted characters.

Thats not the case at all and raid participation is showing the decline since WoD for this reason. The raids are clearly better, harder, more demanding, but also unforgiving to more casual raidgroups and without any hope for progression help over time.

[GnomeEU]

BoE Race to WorldFirst

With WF kills happening at gear levels that a normal guilds gets maybe 3 months later, the soft nerf does not happen. And even those top guilds use the same composition and geared mains just to get the rekills and still strugle with some bosses.

Thats not a soft nerf, thats a hard tuned raid tier with no softing at all, just the hardcore raiders using 3 months or gear advantage for 100+ millions of gold each tier.

A soft nerf would exist, if the best raiding guilds could not only farm mythic with half twinks/off-meta-composition but also with 2-3 boosted characters.

Thats not the case at all and raid participation is showing the decline since WoD for this reason. The raids are clearly better, harder, more demanding, but also unforgiving to more casual raidgroups and without any hope for progression help over time.

True for gear level of world first guilds.
For soft nerf we have soulbinds, sockets and a higher ilvl.
It's not much, but makes at least a 10% difference.
And bosses got nerfed a few times since the start.

But mythic raid carries are sold.
A group that knows the fights and is 225 ilvl also clears mythic in 2 to 3 hours.

Mythic difficulty is fine.
The problem is the motivation to do so.
I joined 2 guilds to clear mythic. Both disbanded after the 3rd boss. Great vault gives 226.
Theres no need to raid mythic. When you're already 220+ you get minor upgrades at best. If you do pvp you're 227 ilvl already.

[Azerate]

Anima upgradeable covenant sets
Soulbinds
Renown catchup
Valor points

[kamuimac]

In past expansions, Blizzard has implemented hard nerfs, or more recently "soft nerfs" to raid tiers over time. In BFA, we had Azerite armor tiers, and neck level increases from AP grind, Legion had artifact traits + AP, WoD had the legendary ring etc. With Shadowlands, there is none of that aside from the usual power creep from increase in ILVL. Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever. As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

none.

blizzard is catering this expansion solely to hardcore raiders regardless of effects thats why you will see no nerf mechanic .

another reason why over 50 % of playerbase left game.

Ion has 1 goal - to get rid of 90% of playerbase by 9.1

only then he will see SL as success

[lordjust]

... As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

The problem with pugging nathria isn't that people need soft nerfs in form of power increase. Most bosses in nathria are mechanic heavy and if the pug doesn't do the mechanics, you can't kill the boss. Some bosses are even harder if you have more dps like denathrius. If you do too much dps in p1, the group will have too many stacks of the debuff and people won't make it to the middle. Our raid team does enough dps that we could push denathrius to 70% after the first ravage but most people would have 4 stacks so we just stop dps after the first ravage. In a lot of pugs people just do dps all the time and half the raid won't make it to the middle. Similarly you have transitions like in the kealthas fight or the coucil fight. The moment you transition from phase to phase is important because if too many mobs are still alive they probably will overwhelm you in the next phase. In older raids mechanics weren't that important and more healing and more dps was always beneficial.

It's puggable but it needs a lot more coordination and I don't see an easy fix for that other than further nerf the mechanics so that you can survive by not doing them. They nerfed a lot of mechanics already like the bottles in the darkvein fight or mob HP in the darkvein fight which makes it easier and a lot of mechanics like the charge in denathrius p1 can be countered by using a def cd, when before the damage was so high that it killed you if you didn't use an immunity or people did the mechanic and stood in line to split the damage.

[kamuimac]

The problem with pugging nathria isn't that people need soft nerfs in form of power increase. Most bosses in nathria are mechanic heavy and if the pug doesn't do the mechanics, you can't kill the boss. Some bosses are even harder if you have more dps like denathrius. If you do too much dps in p1, the group will have too many stacks of the debuff and people won't make it to the middle. Our raid team does enough dps that we could push denathrius to 70% after the first ravage but most people would have 4 stacks so we just stop dps after the first ravage. In a lot of pugs people just do dps all the time and half the raid won't make it to the middle. Similarly you have transitions like in the kealthas fight or the coucil fight. The moment you transition from phase to phase is important because if too many mobs are still alive they probably will overwhelm you in the next phase. In older raids mechanics weren't that important and more healing and more dps was always beneficial.

It's puggable but it needs a lot more coordination and I don't see an easy fix for that other than further nerf the mechanics so that you can survive by not doing them. They nerfed a lot of mechanics already like the bottles in the darkvein fight or mob HP in the darkvein fight which makes it easier and a lot of mechanics like the charge in denathrius p1 can be countered by using a def cd, when before the damage was so high that it killed you if you didn't use an immunity or people did the mechanic and stood in line to split the damage.

what they didnt do is they still didint fix the scaling of number of mechanics for small raids. its 3 months and still on most bosses people who do 13-14 get the same number of mechanics like raids with 25 people. denathroius is least improtant problem of this raid.

[Wildpantz]

Yes, I agree. The issue with this expansion is coordination requirements have gone up for "casual" players (the kind who expect to get AOTC and start doing +15 after 2-3 months), and getting better gear doesn't really fix that. I don't expect to be able to get AOTC quickly, but at 220 item level it should be pretty easy, and groups at that ilvl fail all the time. I'm in a casual guild that gets AOTC every tier (I don't raid with them, I'm just in there to be social) and normally there are 5 or 6 people who will get AOTC pugging on their own time before the guild gets it. This tier, no one has. These are pretty good players, most of whom have a history of raiding mythic but stepped down as adults who were too busy - the raids are full of "hang on the baby's crying" or "can't come tonight, the kids have a concert". So the groups will never be that coordinated. In previous expansions, where it was more practical to progress on your own by pugging, the game was a lot less frustrating for players like us.

Got aotc week 3 of heroic at 214 with a pug i made myself. If you cant get it at 220 its l2p issuse.

[Shelly]

In past expansions, Blizzard has implemented hard nerfs, or more recently "soft nerfs" to raid tiers over time. In BFA, we had Azerite armor tiers, and neck level increases from AP grind, Legion had artifact traits + AP, WoD had the legendary ring etc. With Shadowlands, there is none of that aside from the usual power creep from increase in ILVL. Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever. As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

The problem is Castle Nathria.

There are too many mechanics that can screw over anywhere from one person to the entire group because someone else decided to check their phone halfway through a fight. So something didn't get soaked, a chain got broke, they didn't cut a ball with a beam, didn't move their circle into the group, didn't move out for the ejection, didn't clear space for the heart seeker, dropped blood on the group, missed their interrupt and so on.

Heroic right now is not in the middle between normal and mythic, it's about 75% towards mythic and 25% towards normal.

This combined with the gear problems that were only addressed a few weeks ago, that just doing the covenant campaign basically negates normal CN gear if you just pump anima into your character and the ease of gearing through PvP have made the PuG scene pretty slim to downright uninviting.

In a month or less we'll probably see a further wave of nerfs come out though. Probably a 15% drop in Sludgefist health or they'll nerf the damage he does after hitting a pillar.

Or maybe not?

Now that CN mythic is open and the first 3 bosses are considered pretty easy you'll see a lot of people running to get the weapon orb off Huntsman if nothing else. Not to mention BoE farms will be more open and that'll help nerf things considerably.

[Kaver]

In past expansions, Blizzard has implemented hard nerfs, or more recently "soft nerfs" to raid tiers over time. In BFA, we had Azerite armor tiers, and neck level increases from AP grind, Legion had artifact traits + AP, WoD had the legendary ring etc. With Shadowlands, there is none of that aside from the usual power creep from increase in ILVL. Problem is, Blizz has made gear acquisition the hardest it's ever been since Classic, along with one of, if not the most punishing first raid tiers ever. As someone who has pugged all my raids (and all my AOTCs) since Wrath, Shadowlands seems to have some of the lowest participation of people pugging raids that I've ever seen. Do you think Blizz will implement some kind of soft nerf mechanic so we can see participation increase?

That's good. People should be joining guilds.