valor for casual

[kiramon]

That's like saying you don't really need a microwave because you can just start a fire to warm up your food. Sure, all you need is some wood and some matches. But a microwave makes it a lot faster, convenient and pleasant.

Same with gear. You might be able to clear Torghast and world quests with crappy gear. But that doesn't mean that better gear isn't still nice. Gear exists as a reward and the main character power progression mechanism at max level since the start of the game.

It's extra silly when you consider that the things you consider to "require gear" are arbitrarily created by Blizzard.

Also in some cases it's simply not true. The first +15 key was cleared by people in ~183ilvl, therefore M+ gear is redundant.
Mythic was cleared by people in ~220ilvl, less than what Mythic drops, therefore Mythic raiding gear is redundant.
And PvP gear is only necessary as much gear your opponent has. Gear could be completely removed from PvP and it would still work and be competitive.


It's a bullshit gatekeeping argument that just draws a very arbitrary line on what gear is "necessary" or not. Gear is the main endgame reward the game is designed around, therefore it should be rewarded from every endgame activity.

I support; except gear levels are arbitrarily decided by the player base, outside of raid finder/heroics dungeons.

[erifwodahs]

Well said. People for some reason equal casual to bad instead of just being very time limited.

The whole point of mmorpg is to advance your character in power level, rewards etc. At the moment in shadowlands they made a series of really bad decisions that prevent us time limited people from advancing our characters. Adding valor points in the same way as they were in wotlk for example would have been good.

And this is a shame. My personal favorite as an expansion was Legion as it provided satisfactory means of progress for everyone.

But M+ let's you progress with limited time, as PvP. Only mythic raids are timer restricted progression at high level.
In pvp you can literally do 5-15 minutes of arenas a day and log off. And you can do 1 m+ a week and still get good item from the vault. And if you are time restricted that much - chances are 210 from +15 might be still useful.

My guildie got his monk to 220 in 2 days. If you spread that over a month, it would result in roughly 3-4hrs a week.

[Rucati]

And I suppose you and you alone has the say in what is worthy or not of getting a reward?



They very clearly are. Why wouldn't they be?



Why? If it's doable in 180ilvl, anyone who needs more gear than that is a badie and shouldn't be handhold by gear. Right?

You're just falling into the typical "anyone who's better than me is a tryhard and doesn't count, and anyone who's worse than me sucks and doesn't deserve rewards" mindset. Open your mind a bit.

I have no say in what's worthy of a reward, but Blizzard has decided that content that can be done in less than 5 minutes by a braindead monkey doesn't warrant a reward. I just happen to agree with that.

The problem is the last couple expansions gave everyone full mythic raid gear just from doing world quests, like you literally had to kill one mob for half the quests to get the best gear in the game, so now that's what everyone expects. And the fact that now you don't get handed everything just for logging in makes some people upset I guess.

If you really think world quests are end game content then I don't even know what to say.

People get rewarded based on the difficulty of the content and the time required to do it. Torghast is insanely easy and takes less than 20 minutes a week, so of course it doesn't give gear outside of the ash for the legendary. World quests take literally zero skill and can be done in under 2 minutes each, so of course they don't reward useful gear. They shouldn't.

The fact you can get 200 ilvl by literally AFKing in BGs should be enough for people honestly. You don't even have to play the game. You can queue for a random epic BG, accept the queue, and literally watch a movie while you run in circles and you'll be rewarded a full set of 197 gear. That's more than enough for anyone who doesn't want to do any serious content honestly.

[Duroga]

Valor Points were introduced to compensate the Bad Droprate in M+ Dungeons.
The Target audience are the players that do M+.
If you don't run M+, then there is no need for compensation,
because you get your appropriate gear from the content you run.
No need for gear you otherwise wouldn't get in the first place.

I myself only do 1 or 2 M+ a week, and i call myself casual, i am ok with the implementation.
You see a lot more groups, because even running +7 or +8 can give you good enough gear to upgrade,
after you had your Achievement.

[kamuimac]

If gear exists as a reward, as you yourself said, then clearly you should need to do something worthy of getting a reward. And it is rewarded from *every* endgame activity. But Torghast and world quests are not endgame activities.

And your points about gear not being required for those things doesn't really hold up when you figure that those activities drop gear so more people can clear them. Sure, some people can clear +15s are 180 ilvl, but the majority of people can't. But if they grind +5s, then +8s, then +12s or whatever until they're in full 210 gear then they can clear +15s. That's kind of the point.

And I agree about PvP. Gear should actually be completely removed from PvP both as a reward and as a requirement and every BG/arena should just have equalized gear across the board for everyone in it so it can actually be fair and competitive.

So really this just kind of proves my point. Gear is the endgame reward, it is rewarded from endgame activities. If people do not wish to do endgame activities (M+, raiding and arenas) then they do not get gear. I don't see how this is a problem in any way.

this is exacly why wow is dying and lost its right to call itself mmorpg.

gear is nothing more then a tool - you kill boss A to get gear X to be able to easier kill boss A+1 to get gear X +1

infinite loop in theory

wow broke it.

nobody normal is looking for chalenges in mmorpg. thats why vanilla was so popular because unlike other mmorpg it was easy . that was their recipe for success - make it easiest mmorpg on market

they lost it over the years and so they lost players.

people play mmorpg to have constant char progression . if they dont have it they stop playing. its really that simple

9.0.5 is not offering them that progression . it has nothing to offer to general wow playerbase

thats why it will crash and burn so hard.

- - - Updated - - -

If you really think world quests are end game content then I don't even know what to say.

WQ and LFR is true endgame for overwhelming majority of wow players

it doesnt matter if you like it, its doesnt matter if its illogical for you - those are undeniable facts

those are the people who pay bills so you internet-pro could enjoy your hardcore content.

now they are gone. and you can just wait and see how badly will blizz axe SL . and oh boy it will be axed badly once sub losses dont stop only speed up in 9.0.5

[Wavebossa]

if you dont do any mm+, valor you gain with wq and some quest has any purpose ?

they are only to upgrade mm+ stuff right ? nothing to buy with them ?

Upgrade your Mythic 0 gear.

[kamuimac]

Then time it. Otherwise you don’t even deserve the gear. Stop the entitlement.

and this is what is wrong with wow atm

internet heroes deciding who is worth to play wow and who isnt

this is what Ion's decision alloed - rapid growth of extreme toxicity in game.

i have been repeating for years how badly hardcore players affect game - it reached its culmination point in 9.0.5 solely due to Ions decisions

unless blizzard fires Ion by 9.1 and changes game dirction 180 degrees they may have very big problems with 10.0 launch .

[ClassicPeon]

So classes are not allowed to do burst in a short window of time so you don't feel bad?
I mean It must be really hard for other classes to cope with frost mage cleave on the same boss outside of the burst window.
Or to see that the same frost mage at the end of the dungeon did similar damage to that "30k" boomkin, because that's literally the ultimate best scenario for that boomie to use convoke. In reality it's not like that. If you think that this is norm, you again would lack understanding why "meta" are not just "big dam".

If your frost mage did the same damage as the boomkin at the end of a dungeon you are running with grey loggers.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. If you keep spewing lfr talk i'l just ignore you. Try arguing from a more informed standpoint

[erifwodahs]

people play mmorpg to have constant char progression . if they dont have it they stop playing. its really that simple

In WotLK you could not get bis if you did not raid.
In classic you did not get items if you did not raid.
In TBC you could not get bis if you did not raid.

You could get same half ass items as you can get from WQs now.

[Tyrilion]

Rank 1 Mythic Gear is obtained through M0, this means the points you earn outside of the M+ can still be used

[paxen]

I'm waffling between "casual" and "m+ noob" these days (badgering my casual guild into running mid-level keys).

One thing that will always be a mystery to me is the way so many "casual" players (including my guild mates) obsess over gear. I know lots of people *do*, and that it's an important goal for very many players, but I just don't get it. Oh well.

For me, the best casual content is the storylines - legion class campaigns, shadowland covenant campaigns. It's very cool that they also give player power, but I'm totally fine with that power reaching some arbitrary cap. And rewards are important in content - I love twisting corridors, but I'm very sad that there are no rewards for redoing the layers. Especially for content that is unique based on class, I'd really love to push TC on new classes, but in the end I don't because I'm a slave to the reward cycle jusst as everybody else.

But if they just added an anima reward at the end I'd be ecstatic - maybe 35 per layer (so 8x35 at layer 8, or probably something like how you get less and less extra in regular tower runs). Hell, make them weekly. Give me 500 anima, or even 250, for completing the first TC layer 8 run in a week and I'd be happy.

But apparently nothing counts unless it gives +ilvl. Because "progressing your character" is the key motivation for playing WoW. This is actually a cold, hard fact - WoW is about "progressing your character", ie +ilvl, everything else is just distraction while playing ProgressQuest. But I don't understand it.

[Rucati]

this is exacly why wow is dying and lost its right to call itself mmorpg.

gear is nothing more then a tool - you kill boss A to get gear X to be able to easier kill boss A+1 to get gear X +1

infinite loop in theory

wow broke it.

nobody normal is looking for chalenges in mmorpg. thats why vanilla was so popular because unlike other mmorpg it was easy . that was their recipe for success - make it easiest mmorpg on market

they lost it over the years and so they lost players.

people play mmorpg to have constant char progression . if they dont have it they stop playing. its really that simple

9.0.5 is not offering them that progression . it has nothing to offer to general wow playerbase

thats why it will crash and burn so hard.

- - - Updated - - -



WQ and LFR is true endgame for overwhelming majority of wow players

it doesnt matter if you like it, its doesnt matter if its illogical for you - those are undeniable facts

those are the people who pay bills so you internet-pro could enjoy your hardcore content.

now they are gone. and you can just wait and see how badly will blizz axe SL . and oh boy it will be axed badly once sub losses dont stop only speed up in 9.0.5

WoW is still the most popular MMO on the market by a hilariously large margin. That won't change any time soon. The general WoW playerbase isn't going anywhere.

It's alright though I can tell just from how you type that you literally have no idea what you're talking about and are just desperately hating on a game because it doesn't cater to you.

[Simple Rick]

Why and when did we start calling poor to mediocre players casual?

You can full clear mythic raids doing six hours a week and polish off 15s by adding an hour or two more over a month.

The game shouldn't really be designed around getting the best gear from the easiest of content and this system seems to actively encourage people to push towards a 15.

[Wavebossa]

Why and when did we start calling poor to mediocre players casual?

You can full clear mythic raids doing six hours a week and polish off 15s by adding an hour or two more over a month.

The game shouldn't really be designed around getting the best gear from the easiest of content and this system seems to actively encourage people to push towards a 15.

The term "casual" has no meaning on this board.
You are implying (i think) that there are 10/10m casuals running m15s.

Other people think casuals are people who have only touched LFR.

That kind of disparity lets me know that everyone means something wildly different when they use the word.


For what its worth I haven't met a single Cutting Edge player that I would consider a casual, even if they only raid 3 hours a week.

[Kaver]

and this is what is wrong with wow atm

internet heroes deciding who is worth to play wow and who isnt

this is what Ion's decision alloed - rapid growth of extreme toxicity in game.

i have been repeating for years how badly hardcore players affect game - it reached its culmination point in 9.0.5 solely due to Ions decisions

unless blizzard fires Ion by 9.1 and changes game dirction 180 degrees they may have very big problems with 10.0 launch .

The problem atm is entitled players who think they should have everything served on a silver platter because they paid for the game.

There is nothing hardcore about the game. You do some content and you get some gear according to the difficulty. That's logical and how it should be.

The main content of WoW is Raiding, PvP and M+. If you don't want to participate in that then that's your decision.

"i have been repeating for years how badly hardcore players affect game" is not an argument for anything. Your opinion doesn't hold any value for anybody other than you. I would argue that self-proclaimed "casuals" (lazy entitled players) are harming the game.

I wouldn't mind if all the self-proclaimed "casuals" (who are really just lazy entitled players that don't want to put in any effort) quit the game. Sure the game might lose a few dollars, but Blizzard can then stop wasting money on all these shit systems like covenants.

Wow is not dying. It's doing fine. Blizzard are just cleaning out all the filth.

[Kolvarg]

And the fact that now you don't get handed everything just for logging in makes some people upset I guess.

No, the issue is very clearly not that people don't get "everything just for logging in". The issue is that certain progression paths end very early with no additional power rewards to strive for, with many players being funneled into other paths (raiding and M+) in which they are simply not interested in.

If you really think world quests are end game content then I don't even know what to say.

Shadowlands world quests are content that is only available at max level. That's the definition of end-game content as far as I'm concerned.

What is end game content to you?

People get rewarded based on the difficulty of the content and the time required to do it. Torghast is insanely easy and takes less than 20 minutes a week, so of course it doesn't give gear outside of the ash for the legendary. World quests take literally zero skill and can be done in under 2 minutes each, so of course they don't reward useful gear. They shouldn't.

As you say, and well, should be rewarded based on difficulty AND time.

Of course a 2 minute shouldn't give the same/as much gear as a 40min M+. But 20+ 2 minute WQs, on the other hand, why not?

No one is saying that people doing WQs should get gear as fast someone doing harder content. The point is that a system like Valor could and arguably should cover the entire endgame content and reward all PvE content - much like MoP, where you could choose between raids, dungeons and scenarios to get your currency weekly cap, for instance.

[Erous]

The expac is 4 months old and there's a very casual player who posted earlier. Based on WQ, raid finder, mission table and legendary grinds, sitting at ~190 iLevel is very doable and I think the expectation. I see there being plenty for the typical casual player to do to gear up. There's also craftables and unrated PvP to boost that even more.

[Harry Botter]

He is a firm believer that whatever his exact playstyle preference is, THAT should reward that absolute maximum gear you can get in the game.

If that playstyle changes, so should the game.

Its kinda fun how narcissistic some people are

He is also the guy who spent weeks complaining it was impossible for mages to do torghast even after they nerfed it.

[Glorious Leader]

Then time it. Otherwise you don’t even deserve the gear. Stop the entitlement.

How long do you imagine people will continue to a subscribe to a game that continually reminds them how undeserved they are? Particularly one where the community or at least a vocal part of the community reinforces that feeling? Telling people they suck is not a good way to retain subscribers.

[erifwodahs]

If your frost mage did the same damage as the boomkin at the end of a dungeon you are running with grey loggers.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. If you keep spewing lfr talk i'l just ignore you. Try arguing from a more informed standpoint

You are the one who is not informed or ignorant, maybe saw few MDI runs and thought "wow, boomie OP". My "LFR Talk" when you don't understand the mechanics behind. Exactly what I am talking about when I said that people don't understand why something happens and what are mechanics behind certain setups and conditions for certain specs to be much better than others. Btw have you seen Hpala dmg on first boss in mists? Or fire mage HoA pulls?