Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[Lord Pebbleton]

I am surprised this thread has got to 18 pages.

This idea is just terrible, in theory and in practice.

In theory, because it would be an absurd amount of work to coordinate an AI that is notorious for being lacking, your own character, the boss' movements, and all the different tactics involved. Some bosses are already hard to nail if you are your own self without the nervous breakdown provided by ranged tanking.

In practice, because the AI will either be utter crap, and so you'd just pick a conventional tank, or phenomenal on its own, so you become mandatory in any content.

[Teriz]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's fine though, yeah? if you wanted to try to make something like this work, it's likely a requirement, and I think it would be fine for some fights to skew more toward melee form / ranged form. Regardless, there isn't really room for something like this in WoW, as things are now.

Mostly, I was hoping Teriz might see this and see that you can take other people's ideas and adapt your own without being a total cumquat about it.

Your idea isn't much different from mine. I'm not seeing how I'm being a "cumquat" if we're reaching pretty much the same conclusion.

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But...why?

To provide an alternate way of tanking, and to open up the role to more styles of gameplay.

It does require more steps, but I believe that players would be willing to play something more complex if it provides an alternative to melee tanking.

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It's not "semantic nonsense". You always try to dismiss what people say as "semantic nonsense".

Your central point of contention revolves around an opinion of what constitutes ranged and melee gameplay.

That is semantic nonsense.

[Ielenia]

Your central point of contention revolves around an opinion of what constitutes ranged and melee gameplay.

That is semantic nonsense.

And you're ignoring all the arguments I've presented and just focus on that single line... basically just to bump up your tinker thread. I suppose I'm helping by responding to you, but whatever.

[datguy81]

And you're ignoring all the arguments I've presented and just focus on that single line... basically just to bump up your tinker thread. I suppose I'm helping by responding to you, but whatever.

It sure was a peaceful week. This can't be a tinker threads mods already warned about it. If he tries to make it a Tinker thread it will get closed

[Teriz]

And you're ignoring all the arguments I've presented and just focus on that single line... basically just to bump up your tinker thread. I suppose I'm helping by responding to you, but whatever.

You can apply this same concept to a beast theme, a demonic theme, an undead theme, and yes, a technological theme. So no, this was never a “Tinker” thread.

[Elbob]

This idea is just pet tanking but trying to make it legit tank quality and it has so many holes... just looking at this tier alone
1)Shriekwing - Which tank gets the debuff the pet or the player? Do they share debuffs?
-If its just the pet can't you spam heal the player to heal the pet as suggested?
-If its the player you just heal the pet
-If its both other fights would'nt work like Sire. If both player and pet got the dot in p3 they would take insane damage.
Possible solution is the pet is untargetable by allies(so all heals have to go through the player) and all debuffs are transferred to the player?

2)Inerva - How is the mythic tank mechanic done by the pet? it requires directional facing at images.

3)Sunking - If movement is done by teleporting the pet to you constantly moving the image would result in constant double stacks as you and your pet will constantly be in front during the movement windows. Either you both get stacks or if debuffs transfer the player will get 2.

4)Council - Again with directional mechanics with Stavros where he lunges through your back to your front. How do you 'aim' this with a pet? You would frequently need your pet to stop facing its current target which isnt how current pet AI works. Not to mention kiting the adds in p3 would be a logistic nightmare with you needing to set your pet on passive while you dragged it around the room to stop it from running back at the add after each teleport.

5) Sludgefist - Who gets linked to the other tank? You or the pet?

6) Sire - Aiming his frontal in p1 is very important and often requires adjusting up to the last second. Are both you and your pet taking this each time? Does this mean you lose 2 stacks or 1? Are you taking dbl damage because of it?

I'm sure there are more but just that list alone is a logistics nightmare for class design. Saying things like "I wanna tank while ai moves the boss", just comes across as silly since part of tanking is boss movement. If it was just self sustain and mitigation are you really any different than an old school tbc/wotlk holy pally with blessing of sac up 24/7?

[Ielenia]

You can apply this same concept to a beast theme, a demonic theme, an undead theme, and yes, a technological theme. So no, this was never a “Tinker” thread.

Teriz, you can lie until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change the facts. You only added the 'dragoon' idea after people started calling you out on that. You even removed all the images in your OP in which you had mechanical turrets.

Here's another fact: "stationary pet gameplay" (i.e. turrets/totems) is highly unlikely to come back to WoW, and if it does, it's highly likely that it'll return to the class that had it in the first place: shamans.

[Teriz]

This idea is just pet tanking but trying to make it legit tank quality and it has so many holes... just looking at this tier alone
1)Shriekwing - Which tank gets the debuff the pet or the player? Do they share debuffs?
-If its just the pet can't you spam heal the player to heal the pet as suggested?
-If its the player you just heal the pet
-If its both other fights would'nt work like Sire. If both player and pet got the dot in p3 they would take insane damage.
Possible solution is the pet is untargetable by allies(so all heals have to go through the player) and all debuffs are transferred to the player?

The only the tank (player) gets the debuff. Any damage or debuffs that hit the pet are transferred to the PC.

2)Inerva - How is the mythic tank mechanic done by the pet? it requires directional facing at images.

The PC and the Pet would merge.

3)Sunking - If movement is done by teleporting the pet to you constantly moving the image would result in constant double stacks as you and your pet will constantly be in front during the movement windows. Either you both get stacks or if debuffs transfer the player will get 2.

The PC teleports to the pet, not the other way around. Also there would be only one debuff, since the "pet" wouldn't get it.

4)Council - Again with directional mechanics with Stavros where he lunges through your back to your front. How do you 'aim' this with a pet? You would frequently need your pet to stop facing its current target which isnt how current pet AI works. Not to mention kiting the adds in p3 would be a logistic nightmare with you needing to set your pet on passive while you dragged it around the room to stop it from running back at the add after each teleport.

Or the PC simply merges with the pet.

5) Sludgefist - Who gets linked to the other tank? You or the pet?

The PC merges with the pet.

6) Sire - Aiming his frontal in p1 is very important and often requires adjusting up to the last second. Are both you and your pet taking this each time? Does this mean you lose 2 stacks or 1? Are you taking dbl damage because of it?[/quote]

Again, the pet doesn't take damage. Any damage or debuffs are transferred to the tank.

We should also note that the mechanics you're talking about here were designed without a ranged tank in mind. If Blizzard ever created a ranged tank, they would tailor raid bosses with that tank in mind.

[Ielenia]

The only the tank (player) gets the debuff. Any damage or debuffs that hit the pet are transferred to the PC.

So the "ranged" tank can ignore boss mechanics like tank debuffs that increase damage taken from X ability. And I'm saying this because the damage that transferred is done by the ability or passive that causes the transference. For example: a paladin using Blessing of Sacrifice on the tank, and the tank is hit by an ability called "Fist of Stone" (for example). The paladin will take damage from Blessing of Sacrifice, not from "Fist of Stone". Likewise, the damage the demonology warlock's pet take through Soul Link is caused by Soul Link, not by the ability that damaged the warlock.

The PC and the Pet would merge.

The PC teleports to the pet, not the other way around.

Or the PC simply merges with the pet.

The PC merges with the pet.

How can you not see that all of this literally negates the whole "ranged" tank?

We should also note that the mechanics you're talking about here were designed without a ranged tank in mind. If Blizzard ever created a ranged tank, they would tailor raid bosses with that tank in mind.

Which means less complex fights, because now the bosses have to equally fit both a "ranged" tank and a melee tank, considering it's a fact that many mechanics today do not allow for a ranged tank to exist.

[datguy81]

We should also note that the mechanics you're talking about here were designed without a ranged tank in mind. If Blizzard ever created a ranged tank, they would tailor raid bosses with that tank in mind.

So the ranged tank would not be able to tank any of the bosses with mechanics that are not designed with a a ranged tank in mind or Blizzard would have to go back and change all those fights.

Sounds like the whole ranged Tank Idea is DOA

[Katchii]

Which means less complex fights, because now the bosses have to equally fit both a "ranged" tank and a melee tank, considering it's a fact that many mechanics today do not allow for a ranged tank to exist.

Not to mention that this goes against what he was saying himself earlier in this thread, that Blizzard wouldn't have to change anything to make his idea for ranged tanking work, when it was brought up that is exactly what would need to happen in order for actual ranged tanking to happen (Blizzard designing encounters around ranged tanking).

The levels of disingenuous, bad faith, mental gymnastics riddled arguments this guy has is off the fucking charts.

[Shmazard]

Didnt read through thread but they could should and easily convert hunter survival to a tank spec, similar to death knights.

[VinceVega]

I don't think ranged tanking works with how wow fundamantaly functions as a game...

If you have a ranged tank who literally never gets hit because he has a barrier or whatnot there is no need for a healer.
If you have a ranged tank nearly every last raid and ungeons boss won't work anymore as their abilities NEED someone in melee range or they would simply be useless or completly harmless or insta kill another melee. And don't get me started in moving the boss.

In antoher game. Sure why not. Needs to be new because i don't think ranged tanks exist anywhere. Mostly because of the movement problem. Swotor has a semi ranged tank but even he has to be in range of the boss to properly function that way.

TLDR: I don't think wows concept can work with a ranged tank. The changes would make every last bit of content before useless or broken and probably every other tank redundant

[Teriz]

So the "ranged" tank can ignore boss mechanics like tank debuffs that increase damage taken from X ability. And I'm saying this because the damage that transferred is done by the ability or passive that causes the transference. For example: a paladin using Blessing of Sacrifice on the tank, and the tank is hit by an ability called "Fist of Stone" (for example). The paladin will take damage from Blessing of Sacrifice, not from "Fist of Stone". Likewise, the damage the demonology warlock's pet take through Soul Link is caused by Soul Link, not by the ability that damaged the warlock.

Any damage or debuff that hits the barrier will effect the tank as if it was targeted directly.

How can you not see that all of this literally negates the whole "ranged" tank?

Because you're talking about mechanics designed for a roster of only melee tanks.

Which means less complex fights, because now the bosses have to equally fit both a "ranged" tank and a melee tank, considering it's a fact that many mechanics today do not allow for a ranged tank to exist.

I think Blizzard is fully capable of creating complex fights that includes a ranged tank using the mechanics I outlined.

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So the ranged tank would not be able to tank any of the bosses with mechanics that are not designed with a a ranged tank in mind or Blizzard would have to go back and change all those fights.

Sounds like the whole ranged Tank Idea is DOA

If you read my response to Elbob, every boss mechanic he mentioned could be tankable with the ranged tank mechanics I created. The only issue is that for phases that require heavy movement, the ranged tank would have to bring down their pet and fight from melee range.

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I don't think ranged tanking works with how wow fundamantaly functions as a game...

If you have a ranged tank who literally never gets hit because he has a barrier or whatnot there is no need for a healer.

The tank is still taking damage, so yes we still need a healer.

If you have a ranged tank nearly every last raid and ungeons boss won't work anymore as their abilities NEED someone in melee range or they would simply be useless or completly harmless or insta kill another melee. And don't get me started in moving the boss.

The pet is there for the boss in melee range.

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Didnt read through thread but they could should and easily convert hunter survival to a tank spec, similar to death knights.

That would be an interesting evolution for the spec. I would support it.

[Elbob]

The only the tank (player) gets the debuff. Any damage or debuffs that hit the pet are transferred to the PC.

The PC and the Pet would merge.


The PC teleports to the pet, not the other way around. Also there would be only one debuff, since the "pet" wouldn't get it.


Or the PC simply merges with the pet.


The PC merges with the pet.

Again, the pet doesn't take damage. Any damage or debuffs are transferred to the tank.

We should also note that the mechanics you're talking about here were designed without a ranged tank in mind. If Blizzard ever created a ranged tank, they would tailor raid bosses with that tank in mind.

Most of these answers result with the active tank spending huge portions of the fight merged with the pet. You aren't even a ranged tank at this point.... you would spend half the time either merged or running back out to ranged, not to mention the insane amount of gcds used to do all this merging and unmerging it would just be better to sit merged and do more dmg/mitigation.

If the PC can only tele to the pet how da fuq do you move the pet?????? You wouldn't be able to move anything except via merging again BY NOT BEING A RANGED TANK.

As for sludgefist so you would have to be in melee form the whole fight? You can't hand wave off all the tank mechanics and say they weren't designed for a ranged tank because the mechanics that fit your scope would be highly limiting and make raid tanking even more boring then it already is. I didn't even go into M+ tanking which is constant movement while holding aggro which means you would effectively only be able to do your job while merged. Again, breaking your ranged tnak fantasy.

Pretty much your ranged tank idea is hardly different then a bear druid going moonkin form while he isnt tanking or a prot pally just sitting at ranged throwing shields and judgements because half the tank mechanics would require you to merge.

[Teriz]

Most of these answers result with the active tank spending huge portions of the fight merged with the pet. You aren't even a ranged tank at this point.... you would spend half the time either merged or running back out to ranged,

Because you're bringing up boss fights where such a tank isn't being brought into consideration for boss design. Obviously if Blizzard designed a ranged tank, they would design boss fights with that tank in mind. Further, spending just 1/2 or 1/3 of the time tanking at range is still tanking at range.

not to mention the insane amount of gcds used to do all this merging and unmerging it would just be better to sit merged and do more dmg/mitigation.

Except nothing says the merging ability couldn't be off of the GCD.

If the PC can only tele to the pet how da fuq do you move the pet?????? You wouldn't be able to move anything except via merging again BY NOT BEING A RANGED TANK.

Read my OP. I discuss how you can move the pet.

As for sludgefist so you would have to be in melee form the whole fight? You can't hand wave off all the tank mechanics and say they weren't designed for a ranged tank because the mechanics that fit your scope would be highly limiting and make raid tanking even more boring then it already is. I didn't even go into M+ tanking which is constant movement while holding aggro which means you would effectively only be able to do your job while merged. Again, breaking your ranged tnak fantasy.

Again, you're talking about boss mechanics that were never designed for the tank I'm talking about. Thus, if you're doing old fights you would have to sacrifice your ranged tanking ability to do those fights properly.

[Ogarash]

There is no point in range tanking at all seeing as every other tank is in your face. You'd have to design encounters of all kinds to work with range tanking and again, there is no point to it at all. Much of raid tanking ever since TBC is about positioning the boss in a way or moving it from/into shit. Doing this with a ranged tank would make all encounters be more akin to those of Krosus - Firelands Ragnaros etc where the boss is basically stationary.

[Teriz]

There is no point in range tanking at all seeing as every other tank is in your face. You'd have to design encounters of all kinds to work with range tanking and again, there is no point to it at all. Much of raid tanking ever since TBC is about positioning the boss in a way or moving it from/into shit. Doing this with a ranged tank would make all encounters be more akin to those of Krosus - Firelands Ragnaros etc where the boss is basically stationary.

All you need to do is place a barrier or pet in place for the boss to fight in melee while the player is attacking in range. The issue is moving that pet around in complex boss fights. My solution is allowing the PC to merge with the pet and make the necessary movements, and when the phase ends, the tank disengages and fights from range again. Nothing stops a designer at Blizzard from coming up with a better idea to allow the pet to move while the PC continues to fight from range.

[arkanon]

This is an extremely big thread considering the entire premise from the beginning is "I want hunter pets to be able to tank bosses".

[Ielenia]

Any damage or debuff that hits the barrier will effect the tank as if it was targeted directly.

I've just explained how it wouldn't work. Say the boss has an ability that deals damage, and applies a debuff that increases damage dealt by that ability by 100%. The debuff, you said, is applied on the tank, not the pet. Okay. So now let's say the "ranged" tank has the debuff, and the pet takes that damage again. Here's the thing that will happen: the debuff will do nothing, because the "ranged" tank will be taking the damage through whatever passive ability that he has that transfer the damage from the pet to the "ranged" tank, not from the boss' ability, meaning the debuff wouldn't be increasing the damage.

Because you're talking about mechanics designed for a roster of only melee tanks.

And you've failed, so far, to show any kind of mechanics that would work for a melee tank AND a "ranged" tank.

I think Blizzard is fully capable of creating complex fights that includes a ranged tank using the mechanics I outlined.

Same as above. You've failed to even come close to saying it's being possible.